The Covenant (from Halo) vs The Empire (From Star Wars) - Page 4

Grand Admiral Thrawn · #91 (**permalink**) 24-March-2007, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose

Okay then, if you think your numbers aren't worthless, let's do this right. If you want to use a number from your 'babble guide, you have to support it through evidence. Good evidence. Same as any scientific thread. Support your claims. Don't just assert and handwave.

When George Lucas created a fictional universe of Star Wars, He thought most of it up himself. And, whatever he created; became, a fact (in the fictional universe of Star Wars, that is).

And, any book with the Lucas Books seal, became FACT!!!!!

So, the official guide books with that seal, are true.

And, those facts are good enough evidence as it is.

Moose · #92 (**permalink**) 24-March-2007, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn

And, any book with the Lucas Books seal, became FACT!!!!!

Became approved fiction. Not fact. Lucas is a filmmaker. Not a physicist. Not a god. Not Q. He cannot change physical law to suit himself.

You might wish to reacquaint yourself with this by popping over to Phil's astronomy-reviews of the prequels. Maybe get a little perspective? You seem to be taking this a bit too seriously.

HenrikOlsen · #93 (**permalink**) 24-March-2007, 12:49 PM

The problem here is that Lucas is not a physicist, which means the numbers he put in the books are not expressen in any units we know of, even if their names may have a superficial resemblance to some we use.
Start with that assumption and deduce the values as expressed in our units
and you might get to a point where comparison is actually possible.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · #94 (**permalink**) 24-March-2007, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose

Became approved fiction. Not fact. Lucas is a filmmaker. Not a physicist. Not a god. Not Q. He cannot change physical law to suit himself.

You might wish to reacquaint yourself with this by popping over to Phil's astronomy-reviews of the prequels. Maybe get a little perspective? You seem to be taking this a bit too seriously.

You seem to not get the point straight here.

In the fictional universe of Star Wars, the numbers (the ones from the official guide books) became FACTS!

Moose · #95 (**permalink**) 24-March-2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn

You seem to not get the point straight here.

Sure I do. The point is: a fictional universe with a made-up physical system can't be meaningfully compared to another universe with a made-up physical system unless the made-up physical systems both agree. In this case, they don't. Not even a little. Not even with themselves.

If you want to compare the two, you have to compare technologies at a very abstract level. For example: The halo universe has FTL and can go between nearby systems in several hours. Star Wars has FTL and can cross substantial portions of a galaxy (or globular cluser perhaps?) in the same several hours. A meaningful comparison is possible.

If you want to say that Halo's FTL requires fifteen radishes (but not fourteen, nor sixteen) to operate while Star Wars FTL is fueled by 8.5 barrels of whale acne, then that's a claim and must conform to a system (fictional or otherwise) that doesn't break down if you look at it sideways.

If you two want to claim that a plasma rifle (Halo) delivers 5 million joules to the target, (10,000x more energy than a ridiculously overpowered speargun), you have to understand that the effect on a target is going to be dramatically greater than merely getting shot.

You want numbers? Here's a number for you: That plasma rifle where Kahardrin claims it delivers 5 MJs (and you agreed with that number)... If 1KT of TNT has a yield of 4.184 TJ (courtesy wikipedia), then the halo plasma rifle has the same yield as 1.19 tons of TNT.

If you want to claim made-up numbers, then the numbers have to make sense.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · #96 (**permalink**) 26-March-2007, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose

Sure I do. The point is: a fictional universe with a made-up physical system can't be meaningfully compared to another universe with a made-up physical system unless the made-up physical systems both agree. In this case, they don't. Not even a little. Not even with themselves.

If you want to compare the two, you have to compare technologies at a very abstract level. For example: The halo universe has FTL and can go between nearby systems in several hours. Star Wars has FTL and can cross substantial portions of a galaxy (or globular cluser perhaps?) in the same several hours. A meaningful comparison is possible.

If you want to say that Halo's FTL requires fifteen radishes (but not fourteen, nor sixteen) to operate while Star Wars FTL is fueled by 8.5 barrels of whale acne, then that's a claim and must conform to a system (fictional or otherwise) that doesn't break down if you look at it sideways.

If you two want to claim that a plasma rifle (Halo) delivers 5 million joules to the target, (10,000x more energy than a ridiculously overpowered speargun), you have to understand that the effect on a target is going to be dramatically greater than merely getting shot.

You want numbers? Here's a number for you: That plasma rifle where Kahardrin claims it delivers 5 MJs (and you agreed with that number)... If 1KT of TNT has a yield of 4.184 TJ (courtesy wikipedia), then the halo plasma rifle has the same yield as 1.19 tons of TNT.

If you want to claim made-up numbers, then the numbers have to make sense.

I see your point, but you seem to forget that you could compare the fictional Star Wars to Halo any time you wish. Hence the words,
"a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...."

And, I didn't agree with Kahardrin on the plasma rifle numbers ( I was referring to other numbers [hence, I didn't specify which numbers I was talking about] that you mistakenly thought was Kahardrin's plasma rifle numbers).

No worries, I was on your side (but, not on your comparison theory).

Now, we all have gotten off the subject of this thread. Let's get back to the original subject, please.

Moose · #97 (**permalink**) 26-March-2007, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn

No worries, I was on your side (but, not on your comparison theory).

Not really taking a side, to be honest. I just don't like seeing rubbish numbers flung about like they meant something.

Quote:

Now, we all have gotten off the subject of this thread. Let's get back to the original subject, please.

By all means.

Just keep your 'babble guides in your holsters* if you please, like they're doing in the Trek vs BG thread**. (*Note the plural.) (** There was one exceptional claim there, and I'm debating with myself if I care enough to dispute it.)

Unless, of course, you'd like to take a stab at sanity-checking the claims you want to use for plausibility. I'd certainly have no problem with that.

Kahardrin · #98 (**permalink**) 26-March-2007, 08:49 PM

First, it isn’t as unrealistic as you might think Moose. 5 MJ of power is only equal to roughly about 1 kg of TNT (Also thanks to Wikipedia) And the properties of the plasma weapons that were talking about are more along the lines of explosive rather than piercing. The effects that we see in the movies and books would be realistic of the quantities of energy used by these guns.

Now I don’t have the book on me but in the Halo novels the first encounter between a Spartan (Sam) and a Covenant Jackal, shows how powerful even a plasma pistol can be. When Sam was shot, it destroyed a hand sized hole in his armor and burned a deep would in his gut. A gun having enough power to blast through a Spartans armor and still burn out a good chunk of the wearer. This should be consistent with a blast of about 1 to 2 kg of TNT.

As for the Star Wars guns that’s not my area to explain (Looks to Thrawn)

Moose · #99 (**permalink**) 26-March-2007, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahardrin

First, it isn’t as unrealistic as you might think Moose. 5 MJ of power is only equal to roughly about 1 kg of TNT

Crap. You're right. I was off by three orders of magnitude there. I think either the decimal in 4.184 TJ threw me or I messed up somewhere juggling the different unit prefixes.

I should have converted everything to Joules and tons right off, like I just did.

Okay, objection to this particular number withdrawn, it's plausible enough. But I'm dead serious about a similar sanity-check for each fictional number being used.

Kahardrin · #**100** (**permalink**) 26-March-2007, 09:25 PM

Just wanted to post on #100, and to site my last explanation.

For a better understanding of Joules: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_...e_%28energy%29

And also the part that I talked about was on page 127-130 of "The Fall of Reach", this is were Sam - 034 got shot

Grand Admiral Thrawn · #**101** (**permalink**) 27-March-2007, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahardrin

Just wanted to post on #100, and to site my last explanation.

For a better understanding of Joules: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_...e_%28energy%29

And also the part that I talked about was on page 127-130 of "The Fall of Reach", this is were Sam - 034 got shot

True, very true.

Bravo to Kahardrin. You have shed the light on that subject.

I just checked to make sure, and you are right.

And about the Star Wars "guns", it all depends on what setting you used on your blaster.

In response to Moose, I think you need to keep your comments to yourself.

And, everyone can keep comparing the fictional Star Wars to the fictional Halo (Milky Way) galaxies whenever they please; because, (in the fictional sense) Halo takes place in our future and Star Wars took place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. So, it doesn't take place in different universes. It takes place in the same (fictional) universe. Henceforth, everyone and their grandmothers can compare Star Wars to Halo!!!!!!!

It is not like we're all comparing Star Trek to Naruto!!!!!!!!!

That also means we all can compare numbers from guides, games, and any site that is fact from Star Wars or Halo.

Now then, back to the topic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moose · #**102** (**permalink**) 27-March-2007, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn

In response to Moose, I think you need to take a test to see if your still sane enough to keep posting.

That was an uncalled for ad hom. You should read the board rules now if you haven't already.

And as for slinging numbers about, just try it. You'll be just as expected to justify them as Kahardrin was.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · #**103** (**permalink**) 27-March-2007, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose

Not really taking a side, to be honest. I just don't like seeing rubbish numbers flung about like they meant something.

By all means.

Just keep your 'babble guides in your holsters* if you please, like they're doing in the Trek vs BG thread**. (*Note the plural.) (** There was one exceptional claim there, and I'm debating with myself if I care enough to dispute it.)

Unless, of course, you'd like to take a stab at sanity-checking the claims you want to use for plausibility. I'd certainly have no problem with that.

And, the above statements you made were uncalled for.

I was just reacting to the the statements you made towards my sanity and true Star Wars facts (that you claim those came from "babble guides").

If I am going to read the board rules again, you should join me; because, you mocked me.

But, you are right. I shouldn't have made that statement. I am sorry. I apologize for responding the way I did.

Musashi · #**104** (**permalink**) 27-March-2007, 07:25 AM

It looked to me like Moose was calling into question the sanity of the claims, not your personal sanity.

Moose · #**105** (**permalink**) 27-March-2007, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn

I was just reacting to the the statements you made towards my sanity and true Star Wars facts (that you claim those came from "babble guides").

Musashi's right. The term "sanity check" was not referring to you at all, personally or otherwise. It's a term used in computing to mean a basic test of a result to make sure it falls within the range of correct output. Not so much testing for accuracy but plausibility. If your program adds two positive integers, then a basic sanity check is to see if the result is a) a number, and b) non-negative.

And I didn't say babble guide. I said 'babble guide. Note the apostrophe. That's short for technobabble. It's a very common term among people who discuss sci-fi. Particularly among those who don't take this sort of thing too seriously. It's not disparaging you. It not even disparaging the guides. (Not very much anyway.) I have, however, repeatedly explained my problem with the use of unsupported numbers.

Would it surprise you to know that your numbers are expressly not considered part of canon? (In the SW universe anyway.) Read. If you look at the line I've highlighted below, you'll see that your view that the stats are "factual" is expressly not an accepted convention in SW fandom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by relevant passage...

The Holocron is divided into 4 levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game stats, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm.

I do, however, like the art in those guides.

Quote:

If I am going to read the board rules again, you should join me; because, you mocked me.

Given the context of the "new" information I've just offered you, if you still think I've been mocking you, I'll be entirely content to apologize.

Quote:

But, you are right. I shouldn't have made that statement. I am sorry. I apologize for responding the way I did.

Apology accepted.

Moose · #**106** (**permalink**) 27-March-2007, 03:35 PM

Just a couple of clarifications, I was a bit rushed this morning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose

If your program adds two positive integers, then a basic sanity check is to see if the result is a) a number, and b) non-negative.

While this is an example of a sanity check (if you're testing a function that adds two positive integers), it's not a useful one if you're talking about a stable library (of which the + operator is a pretty fundamental part.)

In this case, if the intent is a function that adds two positive integers, a useful sanity check would be to test both inputs to see if they're both numbers and non-negative. If this is true (and your library operator valid), your result will also be valid. (*I also realize there's no such thing as a non-integer or negative integer as far as the ALU is concerned. Binary math is neat. Phear the binary, not the reaper.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by from the wiki article I cited

but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

I just wanted to mention, for interest's sake, what the nature of these "few exceptions" are. One really good example would be details about the protagonists from the KoTOR series. Even though the games let the player determine the gender, (force) affiliation, and actions of both protagonists, Lucasfilms has determined for purposes of canon that the protagonist in KoTOR followed the plot for a light-sided male, and that the protagonist in KoTOR II followed the main plot for a light-sided female for the purposes of C-canon. Their physical stats, and specific abilities are left entirely to non-canon, as are, I believe, their side-quest sub-plots.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · #**107** (**permalink**) 27-March-2007, 06:48 PM

I see that you didn't question my sanity now, but you did mock me by calling my numbers "rubbish" (#97).

And you don't understand here, the numbers I used would be considered C-canon and some G-canon.

The events and numbers from C-canon are EU (Expanded Universe).

As long as EU is consistent with the tenets set by GL, the could be considered factual to the SW universe.

And so, I was right in the first place; because, I used numers and "facts from C-canon (EU) that was not conflicting with GL's tenets which could be considered fact to the SW universe that GL said could be consistent with his filoms. Hence, "Film+EU continuity."

Moose · #**108** (**permalink**) 27-March-2007, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn

I see that you didn't question my sanity now, but you did mock me by calling my numbers "rubbish" (#97).

They're rubbish, or may as well be, until they've been properly supported. It's part of the rules here that we support our claims. Keep in mind this is BAUT, not alt.fan.starwars, and the Media forum was chartered to be specifically about debunking bad astronomy/science in media. (Although digression into sci-fi related chattiness has been historically tolerated if it's current.)

Now, I'm okay with suspending some disbelief as far as the numbers can be shown to be plausible.

Quote:

And you don't understand here, the numbers I used would be considered C-cannon.

Please read that quote I cited again. The bold parts. Lucasfilm explicitly does not recognize the numbers from either your guide or from the P&P RPG. That's what the reference to "character/item statistics" means. That's George Lucas's official position on the subject. (I've seen it cited elsewhere, but the wiki reference is the only one I remember offhand.) According to rumor, he actually cares enough to insist upon personally signing off on issues of what's eligible for inclusion in the canon.

(It's why it's so hard to get licensing to make Star Wars games outside of what's been covered by the films. How many games happening after RotJ are there? None, IIRC? Bioware really had to bust their humps getting the KoTOR games happening, and it only happened because Lucas has no interest in making films 4000 years before the Empire. Between Lucasfilm and WotC (licensing for D&D products), it's no wonder Bioware's been using their name recognition and earned goodwill to develop their own franchises now.)

And Lucas's view is actually harsher than my own view of the subject. Until I'd looked it up this morning, I'd expected the 'babble guides to be part of S-canon along with the comic books. (It's canon, BTW, not cannon. Not a big deal, but neatness counts and all that...))

Quote:

As long as EU is consistent with the tenets set by GL, the could be considered factual to the SW universe.

The EU is canon, sure, but by Lucasfilm's fiat, the numbers are explicitly not to be considered part of the EU. The stories, sure. The numbers, no.

Now, and I've said this before, I really have no problem if you want to use them anyway for the purposes of this thread, all you need to do is show they're plausible. That's not really all that hard to do. (At least if you pay more attention to the number of zeros than I did back there.)

Grand Admiral Thrawn · #**109** (**permalink**) 27-March-2007, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose

They're rubbish, or may as well be, until they've been properly supported. It's part of the rules here that we support our claims. Keep in mind this is BAUT, not alt.fan.starwars, and the Media forum was chartered to be specifically about debunking bad astronomy/science in media. (Although digression into sci-fi related chattiness has been historically tolerated if it's current.)

Now, I'm okay with suspending some disbelief as far as the numbers can be shown to be plausible.

Please read that quote I cited again. The bold parts. Lucasfilm explicitly does not recognize the numbers from either your guide or from the P&P RPG. That's what the reference to "character/item statistics" means. That's George Lucas's official position on the subject. (I've seen it cited elsewhere, but the wiki reference is the only one I remember offhand.) According to rumor, he actually cares enough to insist upon personally signing off on issues of what's eligible for inclusion in the canon.

(It's why it's so hard to get licensing to make Star Wars games outside of what's been covered by the films. How many games happening after RotJ are there? None, IIRC? Bioware really had to bust their humps getting the KoTOR games happening, and it only happened because Lucas has no interest in making films 4000 years before the Empire. Between Lucasfilm and WotC (licensing for D&D products), it's no wonder Bioware's been using their name recognition and earned goodwill to develop their own franchises now.)

And Lucas's view is actually harsher than my own view of the subject. Until I'd looked it up this morning, I'd expected the 'babble guides to be part of S-canon along with the comic books. (It's canon, BTW, not cannon. Not a big deal, but neatness counts and all that...))

The EU is canon, sure, but by Lucasfilm's fiat, the numbers are explicitly not to be considered part of the EU. The stories, sure. The numbers, no.

Now, and I've said this before, I really have no problem if you want to use them anyway for the purposes of this thread, all you need to do is show they're plausible. That's not really all that hard to do. (At least if you pay more attention to the number of zeros than I did back there.)

Sorry about the typo (I changed it).

I got those numbers from EU novels and DHC. Not from RPG guides and character satistics (except the vehicle numbers, but thats official and consistent even with the films!).

You said "The stories, sure. The numbers, no."

The numbers were FROM the stories!

And, EU as GL said, "could be official as long as it is between the films and follows my view as the SW universe."

Moose · #**110** (**permalink**) 27-March-2007, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn

I got those numbers from EU novels and DHC. Not from RPG guides and character satistics (except the vehicle numbers, but thats official and consistent even with the films!).

Okay, well as I said, I'm willing to accept those numbers if you provide your cites* and can demonstrate the numbers are within the ballpark of reasonable. I'm willing to help out with that part, if necessary.

(*I didn't see more than a couple of references to where you'd gotten them earlier, definitely not good enough to use to verify context).

Quote:

You said "The stories, sure. The numbers, no."

The numbers were FROM the stories!

If that were the case, Lucas's statement would be utterly meaningless. No, he clearly meant what he meant.

Doesn't matter as far as this thread's concerned in any case.

Quote:

And, EU as GL said, "could be official as long as it is between the films and follows my view as the SW universe."

Sure, as the wiki cite clearly states. But Lucas also said the numbers were a special case and explicitly excluded from canon. That's his intent. Doesn't really matter where they're from, with the possible exceptions of the movies (and the movies didn't really cite numbers, except possibly (not sure) when they were talking about mitichlorians.)

Infinity Watcher · #**111** (**permalink**) 27-March-2007, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose

T

How many games happening after RotJ are there? None, IIRC?

I won't get involved in this debate since I don't know enough about Halo to try and comment rationally however, there are a few games set post ROTJ: the Jedi Knight/Jedi Acadamy games are set in the new republic era (the original Dark forces was set in the galactic civil war but since then they've moved on to NR).

Secondly ,don't take this the wrong way but could I also say that it looks like a few deep calming breaths on both sides might be warranted, as big a SW geek as I can be, this isn't worth getting emotionally wound up about.

Moose · #**112** (**permalink**) 27-March-2007, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinity Watcher

Secondly ,don't take this the wrong way but could I also say that it looks like a few deep calming breaths on both sides might be warranted, as big a SW geek as I can be, this isn't worth getting emotionally wound up about.

No worries from my part, I'm not angry in the slightest. A bit rushed and worried about something unrelated. This is shaping up to be an especially rough week on the home front. I may be largely unavailable tomorrow.

HenrikOlsen · #**113** (**permalink**) 27-March-2007, 11:23 PM

I'll still go on record to claim that since the story lines are from such different times, by necessity, at least one of them has had it's units translated to those we use now, and since the authors(translators) of the canon has repeatedly demonstrated that they have very little knowledge of real physics, the units used has to be seen as arbitrary units the size of which are unknown until deduced from observed effects.

Only when this has been done are the numbers from the two comparable, otherwise you'll end up doing the equivalent to comparing speeds from two books where they show how many miles is traveled per day without realizing that it's imperial miles(1.609344 km) in one and Swedish miles(10km) in the other.

If you want to have this discussion, at least take the time to get it right.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · #**114** (**permalink**) 28-March-2007, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose

Okay, well as I said, I'm willing to accept those numbers if you provide your cites* and can demonstrate the numbers are within the ballpark of reasonable. I'm willing to help out with that part, if necessary.

(*I didn't see more than a couple of references to where you'd gotten them earlier, definitely not good enough to use to verify context).

If that were the case, Lucas's statement would be utterly meaningless. No, he clearly meant what he meant.

Doesn't matter as far as this thread's concerned in any case.

Sure, as the wiki cite clearly states. But Lucas also said the numbers were a special case and explicitly excluded from canon. That's his intent. Doesn't really matter where they're from, with the possible exceptions of the movies (and the movies didn't really cite numbers, except possibly (not sure) when they were talking about mitichlorians.)

I cited most of all my numbers. I cited the following books: SW: Tales From The Empire, SW: Jedi Trial, SW: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, SW: Shadows of the Empire, SW: Labyrinth of Evil, SW: Queen of The Empire, SW: Republic Commando: Hard Contact, SW: The New Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels, and SW: The Complete Visual Dictionary. I also cited from the video game SW Battle Front II. And, I cited the DHC Legacy #0.

As long as GL back up the story, the numbers are as good as any.

And in response to your last sentence, you need to watch the originals more (you'll see more numbers).

"Never tell me the odds!"-Han Solo

Now then, back to Star Wars vs. Milky Way (Halo).

Kahardrin · #**115** (**permalink**) 29-March-2007, 10:16 PM

I agree with Thrawn, that we should be getting back to what this topic was about. But the problem that I see is that we need real numbers that can be used and compared.

I’m not saying that your numbers are wrong Thrawn, just that you’ll have to find some way to support why they are what they are...

Now don’t quote me on this, but I heard somewhere that the E-11 Blaster that Stormies use delivers ~8MJ of energy. If you could somehow find out how to prove it, then that would be a starting point.

One thing that I can recommend is, scan the movies and find the little details that prove why your numbers are what they are.

Of course the only problem I can see is that even if you do find out what the damage from a blaster looks like, how are you going to prove that it does such and such amounts in Joules.

It’s a fact that 1kg of TNT is equal to ~4MJ of energy , but has anyone actually seen 1kg of TNT explode?

So because of that, I call my own numbers in to question, because as I stated in my proof of the damage of a Plasma Pistol

Quote:

This should be consistent with a blast of about 1 to 2 kg of TNT.

Seeing as how I myself have never seen 1 or even 2 kg of TNT explode, I can’t prove that my numbers are any more accurate than Thrawns.

So does anyone know what 1kg of TNT exploding looks like? It would really help this discussion.

korjik · #**116** (**permalink**) 29-March-2007, 10:24 PM

IIRC a claymore mine is a kilo or two of explosive. Pretty big blast.

Kahardrin · #**117** (**permalink**) 29-March-2007, 10:39 PM

Do you think it could blast through ~10mm to 15mm of Titanium?

Wikipedia on Titanium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium

also it would help to know if it were frag or Incendiary, as the frag would add to any damage and the numbers would get complicated.

(Edit) just Wiki'd it, It's Fragmentation... anyone know how this would effect the numbers?

Moose · #**118** (**permalink**) 29-March-2007, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahardrin

But the problem that I see is that we need real numbers that can be used and compared.

I’m not saying that your numbers are wrong Thrawn, just that you’ll have to find some way to support why they are what they are...

That's all I've been asking for.

Antice · #**119** (**permalink**) 29-March-2007, 11:23 PM

In regards to the effects of plasma, one must remember that plasma do not explode on contact.. it basicaly splashes like a liquid, and the impact effect would be minor compared to the thermal effects.

Most AP rockets today use either an explosive to create a short range focused plasma beam in order to burn trough dense aloys and ceramics.
Most notably the "Eryx" (Spelling?),

or a self forging tungsten carbide spear blasted forwards at the last instance before impact.
Most notably TOW missiles.

IMHO are the plasma guns penetration ability laughabla compared to ordinary firearms, but have the advantage of a large potential for thermal damage (incendiary)

regards.

Moose · #**120** (**permalink**) 29-March-2007, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahardrin

(Edit) just Wiki'd it, It's Fragmentation... anyone know how this would effect the numbers?

Well, the thing is, it's not so much the explosion that kills you. It's the shrapnel that gets accelerated by the explosion that turns you into kindling.

Keep in mind, also, that there is necessarily more energy in the recoil of your rifle than there is in the bullet strike. Merely having an explosion happen in front of you (without shrapnel) would most likely knock you back, and down, senseless, and probably rupture your eardrums as well.

Throw in shrapnel, and you've got real damage happening.

The thing with plasma, as well, is that such a strike wouldn't explode (I think) as much as burn. (And then some.) I'd imagine it would be something like a steam strike, only more so. If it were a stream of plasma particles, it might act very similarly to a light saber. Cut and cauterize. Or, like a microwave oven on an egg. Basically a steam explosion.

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Galaxy 4685 -> Galactic Empire vs. The Covenant	This thread	Refback	22-June-2009 06:54 PM