Your wrong on one thing: Not all covenant ships are inferior to an ISD. There are more than just CCS's.

A Covenant destroyer is one of the most powerful ships in the Covenant armada and is far stronger than a CCS. It has incredibly strong shields that can deflect MAC rounds, plasma torpedos and energy projectors. Their weapons can turn a group of UNSC ships into swiss cheese and they carry Seraphs, which are better than Banshees and equal to TIE fighters!

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Covenant_Destroyer

http://www.covenant-clan.co.uk/battlenetstar.htm

In short, a Covenant destroyer could easily match an ISD!

@ Thrawn
We Only see ONE asteroid hit the ISD in the movie.
Also my calculations took into account a continuous bombardment of similar sized objects as well. A factor of a hundred fold increase in shield strength was taken into account to explain why it blew up so easily, and that’s generous. As for the other examples you gave, I’m not going into them.

Now your description of how plasma interacts is interesting, I would like to see your work on this subject. Also could you post a reference to your source material?

As for Fleet composition
The covenant are highly mobile. There HQ is a DeathStar Sized ship called High Charity. Now yes the Covenant abandoned it to the flood, but that’s not the only one in existence. Evendance of this can be found in “First Strike” as the Unyielding Hierophant was a similar construct. They have now lost two of these City Ships and as read are mad because of it but not crippled.

Now Generally
My last post was a little rushed so I’d like to restate what I recently found about my numbers.

ISD’s have multiple shields, one for each facing if I’m correct and smaller shields for key systems. Now the asteroid that hit the ship only had to bust through one shield facing and the tower shield. As we can see that one shield and the tower shield didn’t even stop the asteroid as it took out the tower. This lack of shielding has been attributed to a continuous bombardment of asteroids, and a “possible collision with another ISD” as well as being hit with an ION cannon. IMO a good fleet commander wouldn’t bring heavily damaged ships into an asteroid field in the first place so the ION hits ships are out. The collision damage can account for maybe 25-40% of the factor that I gave.

Conclusion
A CCS class Battle Cruiser is more powerful than an ISD by 5/4 instead of 5/1 as I stated previously. Making a CCS equivalent to an ISD for purposes of fleet engagements.
Also yes Banshees are crappy in the role of a fighter craft. That’s why they are not fighters! In any fight an average sized Covenant fleet will have thousands if not tens of thousands of Seraphs, of which each are equivalent to an X-Wing at least!

Just because you saw one asteroid hit the ISD doesn't point out anything. To prove what I mean is that Episode V isn't a documentary on ISD's, in the Empire Strikes back it doesn't show the ISD's (from an outside view) for the time it would take to watch an ISD be pounded by asteroids. GL didn't want the people watching his movies to focus on one ISD being hit by asteroids. What GL wanted to show the Falcon flying around asteroids, and an the Empire in pursuit of Rebel leaders. (not to say the famous chat between Vader and the Emperor)

Listen to what C3-PO says about the odds of surviving an asteroid field, then think about how much more those odds would go up if the droid was in an ISD.

From wht I've read about High Charity, I could tell that it wouldn't take much for the Empire to destroy it!!!!

True that a good Fleet Commander would send his ships into an asteroid feild in the first place, but Palpatine ordered Vader to pursue them (and to tell you the truth Palpatine isn't a good commander)

During the asteroid field scene, the ISD's particle shield was already worn out when the asteroid we saw hit the tower.

Seraphs are the equivalent of TIEs. TIE Interceptors and X-wings could fly circles around Seraphs plus the've got better shielding!

All the Covenant Ships I've read about are inferior to ISDs due to the fact that ISDs turbolaser weapons are better than Covenant weapons, and ISD shields absorb blasts of energy (it could take alot of punishment) which is better than Covenant shielding (which would be useless against Turbolaser fire).

Covenant shields don't absorb energy.

ISD shields can absorb energy.

"In the Halo book: Frist Strike Cortana reconfigures the electromagnetic shaping coils of a captured Covenant ship to shape the plasma into a thin, sustained beam that, while very effective, consumes plasma at an astonishing rate. (this is a primitive version of a SW Turbolaser) This beam cuts through the Covenant ship itself and its shield like a scalpel". (from Halopedia look up Covenant technology or read Halo: First Strike)

I suggest both of you read First Strike.

An ISD would own Covenant ships.

Well, they'd all be dead against a Vengnost warcloud. Nobody even knows how they work or what they've got; they just know not to go into that area where those other ships never came back from, because that's Vengnost territory and you just don't try to take on the Vengnost!

Beat THAT!

Nothing can stop the will of the force!!! Beat that!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First
I have already mentioned on multiple posts that to account for the Lack of shields I factored in an additional 100x shielding.

An example: At full strength the ISD would be able to take many more times that number of asteroids before exploding. Which it did, and got unlucky with a rather large one at the end.

Second
High Charity is a mobile HQ and city ship. It’s not meant to fight. It just means that with one of that type of ship and numerous agri-ships a fleet can sustain itself indefinitely.

Third
All Covenant ships have some kind of shielding. Even banshees use the shields of the pilot for added protection. Seraphs are incredibly fast form what can be observed in-game, they appear to be just as fast as a Tie fighter. Their armament includes a Pulse Laser, which to me would be the equal to a quad laser as it appears on the Millennium Falcon.

Forth
As for shielding, post some references, please! Since when have Covenant shields not been able to take a hit? Your fudging facts because your argument is weak.

The “Scalpel Beam” is NOT a primitive Turbo-Laser. It is similar but they’re completely different. For one thing the Beam produced a continues stream of plasma, this would be like heaping a couple of plasma torpedoes into a straight blade of energy, which would have the burning capacity equal to ~100MT of explosive force (as I have stated in my estimates, the shields of a CCS can withstand at least 40MT, no more). Also the Covenant has this technology, as can be seen on all major ships. A smaller version has been implemented as a Plasma Sword.

Last
I once again put to you Thrawn. Were are you getting your facts on Plasma interaction? Until you prove otherwise, my argument stands with the water bucket vs squirt guns!
And Yes I have read First Strike.

I admit I haven't read first strike but that won't stop me!

Thrawn, your way too arrogant to argue with on a topic like this but I'm just gonna leave you to Kahardrin, since he's the wisest Covenant supporter here and I totally agree with him.

The thin sustained beams from a Turnolaser are more powerful than any Covenant Ship's shields (as seen in First Strike). Kahardrin stop babbling about things you don't even know about ( you are throwing false opinions around that ins't backed up by real information [I allready have backed this one up]) Go search Covenant on Halopedia scroll down to Technology, and read!!!!!!!!!

In Halo First Strike, your Covenant Shields withstand "40MT" can't even block a thin sudtained beam of energy. Which is exactly what ISDs use! ISDs own Covenant Ships!

No one is being "arrogant". And before you type up another reply, I suggest you go looking up the word in a dictionary. I mean no harm.

Kahardrin's facts haven't been supported by facts, and mine have. (If you still don't believe me go look on Halopedia for yourself.

I know just as much as Kahardrin know about the Covenant and more. So by your own theory I should be the "wisest", but I'm not a Covenant supporter (in terms of Halo vs Star Wars).

I like the Covenant, but in a battle versus the Empire, the Covenant don't stand a chance.

That's all.

Please forgive but I'm starting to become annoyed by this whole discussion and I'm even losing my faith in the Covenant!

Even the Galactic Empire isn't invincible and the Covenant is probably the strongest adversary available to throw against the Empire.

If the Covenant can't match the Empire, than who can? Think about it! There are other fictional armies and empires!

Theres Imperium from Warhammer 40000, several empires from Star Trek, the Combine from Half-Life, etc. The Covenant aren't the only ones.

I never said the Empire was invincible.

Start a new thread if you want, but remember Luke Skywalker brought balance to the force (the true prophecy) and esablished a downfall of the Empire (note I didn't say destroyed, because the Imperial Remnant remained for over 100 years and Roan Fel became Emperor of a New Empire (after defeating the New Republic).

I know you never said the Empire was invincible. But it's almost as if your saying they could destroy the Covenant without losing a single Stormtrooper.

I just feel dissapointed the Covenant aren't quite as powerful as I imagined.....but since it's just fiction, I guess I really shouldn't take it too seriously.

@ Middle_Earthfan454
Don’t loose faith so easily, as we can clearly see Thrawn is a Fanboy. They are like the borg from StarTrek, resistance is futile. No matter how much anyone argues and supports their work, if it doesn’t match what they think, then it isn’t true. I have half a mind to just give up because no matter what, nothing that I write, no matter how well supported, no matter how much evidence that I give, it will all be false to him. Of course when presented with to much truth, they tend to snap like a cornered animal, creating random “facts” that in their mind support their argument. The Covenant is a strong faction, and it could go toe to toe against the Empire, but not to a Fanboy.

@ General
As I have proven, an ISD’s shields can take a suspected abuse of at least 30 to 40 megatons of force, this is equivalent to a CCS class Battle Cruiser. Each ships weapons are just as powerful, although the CCS packs all of that power into one turret. There is no difference between the tactical power of each ship. Both Ships are equally shielded, as both can take a tremendous amount of force before going down.

As to the “fact” that you can shoot down energy, this is a fallacy. A Plasma torpedo would have a good chance of reaching its target, unless that target were to be moving at more than half the speed of light, or dodge so that the torpedo hit some intervening target.

One advantage that the Covenant do possess is also their weakness. Slipdrive, with this they have extreme maneuverability, they would be able to retreat from any battle that they want from anywhere in the field of engagement, Interdictors would not be able to stop them. But this advantage also comes at a price, as this travel method is far slower than hyperdrives.

As to the subject of the Beam Weapon, were do you get your “facts” because they are completely unfounded. What that beam did was to pore all of the energy that goes into a plasma torpedo and direct it at one target in a fraction of the time that a conventional torpedo would. This would therefore double the power of the resultant beam. As all of the energy needed for containment from point A to pint B could be used in actually cutting another ship. This is nothing close to what a turbo-laser is. A turbo-laser is just a scaled up blaster, condensing some plasma into a short “blast” and directed at its target. This of course would have nowhere near as much output as that beam weapon. Of course using a turret like that burned it out after the first shot, as it had the power of multiple plasma torpedoes coursing through it all at once. This would have the same effect on any ship from either fleet.

The Empire has better tech and more numbers than the Covenant.

Plasma + plasma = explosion of plasma energy.

The Interdictors Tractor beam would hold a Covenant ship slipspace or not.

I get my facts from halopedia and wookieepedia (and books, video games, comics ect.).

First, your numbers for shields are wrong.

Second, a Turbolaser is a high-energy gas that is released from collimating components into a thin plasma energy bolst that is concentrated for an astonishing effect.

The "beam weapon" Cortana created, uses this same effect a Turbolaser uses, but a Turbolase cannon has its' own power cell so it wont waste energy (like the primitive "beam weapon").

There is no current evidence to support your claims that the Empire has more advanced technology than the Covenant. Nothing that you have supplied so far can conclusively back that assumption up.

As for Plasma + Plasma = Explosion, were is your evidence. Post sources, references, quotes from credible scientific research, anything substantial, just stop spouting rhetoric.

Yes an Interdictors tractor beams would be able to snare a ship but that ship would then burn the Interdictor into slag. If the ship were not able to move then as tractor beams require LOS to their targets an intelligent captain would then open a slipspace rupture immediately between the two ships, thus cutting the beam and freeing the Covenant ship.

Yes Halopedia and Wookiepedia are good sources, and I get some of my research from there to, but when you state that you get your information from those sites, you give no link to back any of your arguments up.

My estimates for shield strength might be off, for I am only human, and with the information that I have to work with, it is tough pinning down an accurate number. But as for a conclusive number, I do believe that these two ships are equals, both in shielding and in hull strength.

As to your last claim Thrawn, you are fudging the entire principle behind the Beam Weapon. This same Beam Weapon is used by the Covenant on its larger ships, and can be seen in use in Halo 2 during the cut scene were Master Chief transports the antimatter bomb into the Covenant Carrier. Just before the Chief enters the ship it fires its Beam Weapon at a passing UNSC ship. This beam is the exact same beam that was created by Cortana, except that this ships turrets were designed to fire in that way and would not short out. As can be seen said beam looks nothing like a turbo laser blast, for it is a continuous beam of plasma, were as a turbo laser has a much smaller beam and is not continuous. It may have the same effect as in it damages ships, but other than that your argument holds no water.

The current evidence is right in front of your face, yet you are blinded by... I... have no idea why... but you still don't see it even when I show it to you (like in the above posts). No harm meant.


Silpspace wouldn't break a tractor beam.

I don't need to give a link if I told you how to find it, though a link would be nice for you (your not lazy, go type it up).

The shields aren't the same. The Empire has better. Read some SW books, please, then come back and reply to that.

And, about the last thing, I don't know what to say. I've shown you the evidence, told you where to find it, and explained how it works, yet you post replies like you didn't even read what I've said. There is nothing left to say.

WAIT.....heres an idea!!!

Thrawn says the Covenant isn't as technologically advanced as the Empire so they can't win on their own.....but the Empire primarily made up of humans. Palpatine is clearly xenophobic and generally hates aliens, and the aliens hate him back!

The Covenant is an alliance of aliens and would probably be fascinated by the alien species within the Star Wars galaxy. If they were to invade an alien world, they could pursuade, seduce, bribe or threaten to destroy other races to force them to join the Covenant. That's how the Hunters joined!

If alien races from the SW galaxy were to join, they could help the Covenant improve and modernize their technology and turn the tide against the Empire. BEAT THAT THRAWN!!!

Just as an aside. The Executor (which admitedly is a SSD) took a collision with a dreadnaught that was traveling at near lightspeed, and its shields held.

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Yes but as you said it is a SSD, which has 20 times the amount of shielding as an ISD

I'm unfamiliar with this event, but If the Executor had warning of the collision then it would have put all shields to the arc were the collision would take place, in effect doubling or even tripling the strength of the shields in that area.

Anyway, IMHO it wold take a fleet of 20+ CCS’s to match just one SSD. But that’s were the Covenant brings in Super Carriers and Reverence class Cruisers, it should only take three or four of them to equal one SSD.

I'm unfamiliar with this event, but If the Executor had warning of the collision then it would have put all shields to the arc were the collision would take place, in effect doubling or even tripling the strength of the shields in that area.

They didn't have warning. They were waiting for a resupply fleet to hyperspace in and the dreadnaught jumped in right on top of them, basically dropped out of hyperspace and vapourised on the Executor's shields.

Anyway, IMHO it wold take a fleet of 20+ CCS’s to match just one SSD. But that’s were the Covenant brings in Super Carriers and Reverence class Cruisers, it should only take three or four of them to equal one SSD.

Then it becomes a battle of how many SSD's the Empire had, depending on the source you get wildy different numbers to that answer. Han states in RotJ that they have dozens of them, whereas some novel based sources indicate that the Empire nearly bankrupt itself building only three of them of them, the Executor, the Intimidator, and The Lusankya, how ever others have turned up since such as The Terror, and The Iron Fist. Post Endor more names appear, ships either finished after Endor or build before such as The Razor's Kiss, The Gaurdian, and The Knight Hammer.

The best sources confirm Han's statement and since the Movies tend to over ride novels, there would appear to have been 4 built during the same period as the First Death Star, coming into service shortly after Yavin, with far more coming into service after that, making them quite a common command ship by ESB and RotJ, hence Han's lack of surprise in seeing one there at Endor and a lack of comment on the size of the one at Hoth.

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

If you go back and check my other posts, you'll find that I said, "Hail Emperor Roan Fel." The Empire had many Emperors (not just Palpatine). In the DHC Legacy series, Roan Fel is the Emperor. Roan Fel does not treat aliens like Palpatine did, so to your theory, The Covenant would be fighting Imperials (most human, others alien). And ever since the Yuuzhan Vong attack, the SW galaxy don't trust or join outside races. (you know this "beat that" thing is so stupid, so I'm going to stop saying that from now on).

At last, one person shows up that knows what a SSD is capable of doing, and understands the shield capabilities of a SSD.

There are many SSDs like Executor-class SSDs, Eclipse-class SSDs, "Doom-class" SSDs(I'm not sure about the official name for this one), Pellaeon-class SSDs...

An Eclipse SSD has a superlaser that could destroy a planets crust (these ships are my favorite SSDs).

And, I don't believe 20 CCSs would be able to match 1 SSD.

I didn't know anything about "Other Emperors" but the Yuuzhan Vong has nothing to do with this. They were formed many years after the Empire and this war would likely take place during the Empires highest point in power so the Covenant would go to war with them!

I believe my theory is still half-right, you just have to consider all of the possibilities!

The Yuuzhan Vong has alot to do with it! You said, "formed many years after the Empire", the Empire never died (Emperors did, but not the Empire). The Imperial Remnant still held many planets during the New Republic. And, the New Empire took over the New Republic after the Yuuzhan Vong War. The Empire's "highest point" is an opinion. There were many times it could have been the Empire's "highest point".


So to your theory, Palpatine wouldn't be Emperor, alien races wouldn't join the Covenant (due to the Yuuzhan Vong attack), and the Covenant won't get a technology upgrade if they don't have anything to study.

Why would plasma explode when it comes into contact with other plasma? It doesn't explode when it comes into contact with itself when it is being contained. As I understand it, plasma is basically super-heated charged particles. There is no reason for plasma to explode when it comes into contact with charged particles from a different weapon.

Why wouldn't opening a slipspace portal not affect a tractor beam? If you could shoot through a slipspace portal without having your weapons go into slipspace, your ships shouldn't be able to go into slipspace either.

Although I totally agree with your earlier statement that the SSD is one of the coolest ships out there... so sleek, big, and powerful.

The Empire has an amazing industrial capacity. 25,000 is only the number of ISDs. That doesn't include any of their other ships. Or any of their superweapons. The Empire spans an entire galaxy, or pretty much anyways.

To be fair to the Covenant though, their Assault Carriers are also one of my favourite ships. Not that that would help them win.. lol

Actually, if they managed to capture Imperial vehicles or weapons...THAT DOES count as something to study and eventually they may learn how to build concentrated plasma weapons and more advanced vehicles, ships, shields, equipment, etc. Once again, beat...no wait .....you said no more of that. My apologies

Might I ask how they will get ships, vehicles, equipment?

Even if they did get their hands on a small ship or two, the Empire would destroy the entire Covenant before they could copy it in production.

Because Covenant plasma is unstable, when Covy plasma hits itself it explodes.

A Tractor Beam would stop a Covy Ship from passing ainto a slipspace portal.

Unstable, no it isn't. As it can reach speeds of .5c maintain shape and still reduce ships to slag. what would happen is the turbolasers shots would punch through the Plasma Torpedo but wouldn’t blow it up or even slow it down, as Covenant Plasma Torpedoes are actually confined within a magnetic containment field. How else would they be able to direct their plasma shots into ships that try to dodge!

How... Tractor beams require LOS (Line of Sight), if a Slip Space Rupture were to be opened between the two ships that would effectively cut the beam, and drop the Tractor beam off the Covenant Ship. Also, as we’re on the subject of Slip Space Maneuvering the Covenant have an extreme advantage, as their ships would just pin-point jump behind the ISD’s into their blind spot and at point blank hull them with massive concentrated fire, then jump back into the safety of Slip Space.

As we have seen in the Halo Graphic Novel, Covenant Fleets have agricultural support ships and mobile HQ’s, they can in effect operate for an extended period of time (100+ yrs) out in the middle of nowhere. When they acquire the Empires technology they will also be able to reverse engineer it with surprising speed as the Covenant engineer is a savant when it comes to any technology, be it Covenant or alien in origin. I would expect them to be able to reproduce Imperial tech within 2 yrs on all of their fleets. This of course would make them many times faster than their new enemies, as using a Hyperspace engine within Slip Space would have no obstructions and reduced travel time. In effect this would allow Covenant ships to travel the void between galaxies in the time that it would take an ISD to travel across it’s own galaxy.

Easy... They would ambush small patrols. I can think of many different scenarios that the empire would leave themselves open to capture.
ie. Lone ship drifting in a space lain, an ISD investigates, tows it aboard (like in Ep 4), ship self destructs and takes out major systems... That would be one strategy, out of many in my book, even if that one doesn’t succeed.

You don't know that for sure!

The Covenant could settle in the outer rim or unkown rim where the Empire would have trouble finding them (Even Grand Moff Tarkin had difficulty controlling the Outer Rim!). With luck, they could capture an Imperial ship and escape to the Milky Way for further study.

Besides, I doubt the Empire would risk sending their fleet into an unknown part of space. If the empire was unsure of how strong the Covenant is, perhaps they would think twice before pursuing them into their own territory where the Covenant would have the advantage.