Looks like this thread has been torched by special interest groups. Maybe these people may wish to light up elsewhere. I can not hold a flame to this argument. Perhaps I should but out eh?

Back too what the thraed is about. Let me think--Oh yah! Everyone who is concerned about smoking are non-comital.

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I have grasped the bull by the tail and am lookin' 'im right in the eye.

Moose did a good job with this, and it is starting to get political, but there are a couple of points I wanted to quickly cover:

Actually, there is a large segment of smokers (in the U.S. at least) that still insist that second hand smoke isn't dangerous. It reminds me of the old tobacco company arguments.

The key issue with smoking is that it is a "third-party" problem, like many other forms of pollution, precisely because it is so hard to selectively control exposure. In practice, before the bans here, it was virtually impossible to avoid a great deal of exposure. I didn't WANT to be around all that smoke, but there really wasn't a choice. Smoking should be controlled like other forms of air pollution. My impression is that if this were anything BUT about smoking, there wouldn't be any question that it should be well controlled.

Death of Magellan

Horned helmets

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The siblings of our grandparents, officially are our grand (not great) aunts and uncles. And the siblings of our great-grandparents are our great-grandaunts & great-granduncles.

Thanks for the link!

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Now while I might be amused by Cthulhians, I don't necessarily distrust them to carry out the functions of government. -- JayUtah

What's it like being a skeptic in the Middle East? Check out my blog.

Thanks--I don't know where I got "they only fould two". It's just something that's been stuck in my head for years

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"Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it." — Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

441!!!! :)

Great topic of discussion (when on track).Back to the original question. I've learned a lot about pepperoni (both the plant and the meat), Magellan, echidnas...


Here's one I come across everyday. As a sedimentary geologist I'm constantly explaining to people (especially smart ones because they are inquisitive) where oil comes from. There's a public misperception that when one drills for oil that there's a big 'bathtub' or underground cavity full of oil and this is drilled into and the oil is pumped out until the cavity is empty. The same way that you would put a pump into a bucket and pump the water out.

There are no 'hollow caverns' beneath the surface in oil producing basins. The oil is found within the rock itself. The rock is porous and contain oil deposits. Pressure forces the oil out of the permeable rock and this is extracted to the surface. To a novice, the oil producing rock (we look at drilling cores) would not look any different from any other rock.

I've spoke to people who thought we could measure the remaining oil reserves in a well by using a type of dipstick. Bottom line: there are no 'hollow' chambers beneath the surface full of oil. It's all rock...as solid in appearance as any rock on the surface.

Is it the same for gas? I know there have been depressions in places where they had extracted the gas from the bottom, but it can be a 'hole' that collapses or the porous rocks that get squeezed together now theat the pressure of the gas is gone... e.g. in Groningen, in the north of the Netherlands.

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Knowledge is a curse, but ignorance is worse

gezz its little wounder people think that if you see a diagram or any thing it always looks like a cavety just look at the simpsons the just sucked it up a pipe like a straw.

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If this writing is blue you're going too fast!

Aquafers are the same kind of thing, I think. . . When you sink a well, you're not going for an underground lake or free flowing river. You're looking for that region in the rockbed where water is "flowing" thru the porous rock.

At least I think it works that way. . .

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. . . My moustache is touching my brain!!!!

Yes similar to oil although gas tends to 'hang around' and will form pockets. Gas will fill underground chambers (and thus can form a safety issue especially in carboniferous rock with 'Karst' geology.)

Wally, aquafers aren't quite the same but you are right they are some type of rock deposit. Unconsolidated and semiconsolidated sand and all types of rocks from carbonates to igneous. I'm not a hydrologist but I think that, as you said, water is mobile in the aquafer whereas in sedimentary oil basis it's just filling in the porosity of the rock. The bottom line is they are not hollow underground canals but rock with water flowing through. Like punching holes in the bottom up a bucket, filling it with sand or gravel and pouring water in.

I'm sure there's some bad sciencein a novel novel or movie where some fellow gains access to a 'so-called aquafer' and rides it like a river to eventually access some underground chamber to thwart an evil force from conquering the world.

Strangely enough, you Just Described a Care Bears Episode.

What's REALLY Scary, is that I Know That!

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If you Ignore YOUR Rights, they Will go away.

Here's one that's appropriate for us here in the States this week:

The L-tryptophan in turkey makes you sleepy.

Wrong. Eating huge quantities of food in one sitting while drinking adult beverages and socializing makes you sleepy. There is not enough L-tryptophan in turkey to have an effect on you on Thanksgiving.

I have no doubt that talking alone to family members will bore you into sleapyness.

I guess it depends on the family...

Some can bore you to sleepiness, others can frustrate/anger you to exhaustion.

According to one site I found, the honour does belong to Magellan, because, though indeed Magellan never made it home on his expedition, he had already sailed from the East Indies to Lisbon years before the expedition began, and therefore, had circumnavigated the globe by the time he died. Some, however, would argue that he never quite made it back to where he had started, and that the honour belongs to his slave, Black Enrique, who accompanied Magellan on all of his voyages and actually made the full return trip.

I agree that Magellan had gone east from Portugal to the Spice Islands (Indonesia) so I agree that a claim could still be made that he circumnavigated the Earth, be it in a two-part manner. However the common myth is that he sucessfully completed the expedition to circumnavigate the globe, which is false since he died part way. Most people do not know about the earlier trip to the Spice islands.

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Now while I might be amused by Cthulhians, I don't necessarily distrust them to carry out the functions of government. -- JayUtah

What's it like being a skeptic in the Middle East? Check out my blog.

Typical libertarian myth. The smokers' rights count. The non-smokers' rights, well if we have to add those, the Libertarian position can't deal with it.

They don't have to go there? Well that can be said for both.

Can the non-smoker sue the smoker for polluting the non-smokers' air?

Who owns the air in the Libertarian model society by the way? Do I own it up to a foot around me? Do I own it if I inhale it?

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~~ ><>><> ~~ ><,,> ><,,> ...`;=;p d;=;' /\/\^/\ ^^ ^/\/\_
Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

Well, we do have clean car emissions regulations. And, regulations on industrial air pollutants.

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~~ ><>><> ~~ ><,,> ><,,> ...`;=;p d;=;' /\/\^/\ ^^ ^/\/\_
Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

Whoops, I didn't mean to drag the smokers vs non-smokers fight back in. Sorry. Here, let me get some health beliefs in here to change the subject back OT.

You catch colds from being out in inclement weather, or getting a chill or whatever other version you want to put in here.
Totally disproved by research, no affect on one's immune system either for those of you who hold on to that belief.

Vitamin C has a direct effect on the immune system, whether you think it prevents a cold or helps when you have one.
Totally disproved by research. Take your vitamins for their other benefits, but this isn't one of them.

Listerine kills germs, thus it "prevents gum disease and bad breath", and implying it prevents other infections.
There are good and bad bacteria in your mouth. Killing all bacteria can actually take out the competition for the bad ones. If Listerine were as effective as claimed, it would kill the cells in your mouth along with the bacteria. It is the brushing away of the plaque on your teeth that is actually doing the good.

Lysol kills 99.7% of germs in 30 seconds. Lysol spray in the air prevents infections.
Again, if it were that effective, it'd be incredibly toxic. You can't disinfect air. Try throwing darts in a room full of balloons. You need one dart for every balloon. Think Lysol in the air is hitting every organism? Again, simple cleaning is as effective as cleaning with disinfectants in most situations.

The Ionic Breeze filters the air.
Well, maybe about as well as your TV screen picks up dust. There is no mechanism for circulating air through the device no matter what claims are made by the company.

And, on another topic, it was a widely held belief the world was round by the time Columbus sailed. Washington isn't on record as having cut down a cherry tree. Betsy Ross did not design nor sew the first flag. And, as long as it is Thanksgiving, I might point out the Pilgrims did not land on Plymouth Rock.

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~~ ><>><> ~~ ><,,> ><,,> ...`;=;p d;=;' /\/\^/\ ^^ ^/\/\_
Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

But getting cold when ill (even mildly) can make it worse can't it?

Are you sure Listerine doesn't kill some of the bad germs then? I notice the difference to ulcers, gum disease and sore throats when I use it.

Again, don't know about Lysol, but maybe it kills some types of germs, in 30 seconds

My tv screen picks up dust very well :-?

"In a vacuum, a person would explode."

Human flesh is stronger than that.

"In space, a person would freeze."

Not very fast.

"Jupiter is a failed star."

No it isn't. To qualify as a "failed star", it would have to be about 80 times more massive.

"Ebola/Marburg is not contagious."

Something transmissable by contact is pretty contagious.

"Cable internet access is better than DSL."

Not if the cable-providing ISP is a crappy one. (This is from personal experience. Norwoodlight does seem to have given me a surprise this Thanksgiving, though... My cable connection is now twice as fast as before! Yay!)

"A missile-defense system is a good idea."

Unfortunately, most of them don't work.

"A powerful laser would make a good weapon."

Only against things that move very fast - lasers would not be very efficient compared to projectile weapons.

"Open-source software is always better."

Not if it's crappy open-source software.

"More expensive means better."

Please compare the iMac and the PC... And note which one kicks the pants off the other in the benchmarks. :P

"Female geeks are a rarity."

More than half of the "geeks" in my high school are girls. (I'm counting all "geeks" here, not just computer geeks, but most have multiple interests.)

"Geeky types are not physically fit."

I'm one of the best runners in my gym class.

"'All Natural'/'Organic' products are better."

"All Natural" cigarettes will still kill you.

"Soy products are a good substitute for meat products."

Are they healthy? Seems that way... But tofu does not, never did, and never will taste like chicken.

"You should drink [blah amount] of water per day."

The majority of people should drink when they get thirsty!

"[Blah blah blah] is a miracle!"

No it isn't, unless it involves some ver extraordinary stuff. The word "miracle" is getting a bit watered down these days...



Edit: Question, Beskep... Do you go by the name of "Skeptigirl" on FWIS?

"Jupiter a failed star': I guess it didn't apply itself hard enough

Here's another one the crops up in paleontology and every other science dealing with taxonomy.

The Kingdom animalia can be divided into 'Vertebrates and Invertebrates' and this is suppose to be some meaningful dichotomy. The division is an one of convenience for study purpose.

Actually, vertebrates are just one of many phyla of animalia. Vertebrates are no less related to an invertebrate clam than a jellyfish is related to a clam. A jellyfish is less related to a starfish than they are to us (a man).

So, if you do a family tree, clump man closer to a clam than you would a starfish to a clam. Neither the clam nor man has any taxonomic argument to being more closely related to a starfish.

Is this actually a common belief ? I think what people mean is that it's not an airborn virus. Also, viral haemorrhagic fevers aren't spread by contact per se, it's through bodily fluids like blood. So I could sit next to a guy with ebola and not get infected.

So get the one that does . Seriously though, Stuart has written some good stuff on this board about the effectiveness and the desirability of having WMD.

I think that people are saying that the paradigm of open-source software is far more effective than the paradigm we have. Open-source anything is a pretty good idea, decentralization is better than command n' control.

Apple doesn't sell computers, it sells a lifestyle. An iMac may not be as useful computerly (probably not a word) but it's far more asethetic. An iMac is an acessory that goes great with your gottee, your starbucks latte and your hipster box glasses.

This really depends on how the word is defined. When people hear "geek" they think the traditional computer nerd/star trek fan (or they think about some guy biting the head off a chicken). I think the vast majority of hackers are men (no data on that though) and men are certainly overrepresented in sf (both as readers and as writers). It really depends on how you set the terms though, Harry Potter fandom is disproportionately female (and I don't mean people who have read them but people who, say, know who Theodore Nott is).

"All Natural" cigarettes, aren't.

Pork doesn't taste like chicken either, but does that not make it a good substitute? I'm more of a tvp or mushroom man myself when it comes to meat substitutions, but tofu's good too. Doesn't have much (any) flavour which is why you have to marinate it in things. It's healthy and nutritious. Though rather ironically soy, not beef, is one of the main causes of the destruction of the amazonian rainforest. Hey, I didn't say it was more environmentally friendly!

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When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror, like his passengers.

Actually, if it was "about 80 times more massive", it would be a star (main sequence red dwarf).

If it were between about 13 times and 80 times more massive, it would have "burned" deuterium for a while (in its youth), but would have stopped by now, so would/could be considered a "failed" star!

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Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

T. Anderson

Thank you!!!

You catch a cold by being inside, where the germs are.

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Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

T. Anderson

Or, on the other hand:

"Higher benchmark numbers mean better"

There are many variables in both the value and the cost of a computer other than benchmark speed. My PC doesn't run Doom3 any faster because I spent £100 on a DVD Writer and second hard-drive. Upgrading to a nicer monitor, adding a Bluetooth dongle and putting the lot in a better case a while back didn't make any difference, either.

I hear that a lot. Especially when it comes to medicine. Every time someone is selling any kind of "miracle pill" they say "It can't harm you because it’s made with natural ingredients". Or “It has to be good for you because it’s natural”.

Isn’t curare and other powerful poisons natural ingredients? People seem to have the idea that "natural" implies "good for you". Actually, a lot of natural things can kill you. Even water in enough quantities.

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FUTURE PIG

Best way to counter the "Natural/Organic" crud?
Pick up a Mushroom from the ground and give it to them. Say "i just picked it up from the ground, you still want to eat it? Its natural by the way. Nuthing added after i took it out of the ground, and nuthing before. !. Sure it will kill you nearly right away but its natural, so it cant be bad right?

The counter argument could be;
Yes, but it won't kill me as fast as an artificial mushroom.

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If this writing is blue you're going too fast!

Yup, Cyanide and Arsnic are both natural products, and both are decidely unheathy for you. Hydrogen Cyanide can poisoning come from eating raw casava or almonds.

Glycoalkaloids can occur in Potatoes, Tomtoes and Egg Plant. These can be fatal if too much is ingested.

Soy products contain trypsin inhibitors from the Raw Soy.

Phytohemagglutinin in red kidney beans cn be fatal.

Lathyrogens from legumes such as chick peas can cause paralysis and death with long term and high level exposure

Amanitin, Gyromitrin, Orellanine, Muscarine, Ibotenic Acid, Muscimol, Psilocybin and Coprine are all poisons that can rnge from debilitating to deadly from various mushrooms

There are a LOT of natural things that are deadly.

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Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran