I just saw some of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan on t.v. During the initial battle scene between Kirk (the Enterprise) and Khan (the Reliant), many of the stars in the background were moving (!). Now, I can forgive the technical effects of showing stars to be moving while the ships are at WARP speed. But for stars to be moving around when the ships are moving at a sub-impulse speed? Ummmm - NOT!

__________________
"As I lay beneath the Southern Cross, the stars tell more than I could" . . . David Meece

The ship was going around in circles, of course. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

I think those are called "Warp Donuts."

I seem to remember that at some point when Khan's ship takes a hit and a nascelle gets blown off, that the sparks and smaller bits of debris drop "downwards". Not really deliberately bad science I suppose, just gravity messing with the special effects. Loved the movie though.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Atko on 2002-11-03 08:52 ]</font>

It's been a long time since I've seen the movie. What do you mean they were moving, Nebularain? Moving in what manner?

Let's see if I can describe it. Picture the background stars in fixed position as they should. Now picture a great many of those stars noticeably moving (travelling? migrating?) in a rightward direction of the screen relative to the viewer. (And at this point, the two ships were passing each other from "into" and "out of" screen positions relative to the viewer!)
Does that amke a little more sense?

So you could see both ships in the picture? It wasn't a scene out some viewport?

Wouldn't the camera moving make the stars seem to move, relative to the ships?

The camera wasn't moving, I don't think. but if it was moving, the motion would be a zoom in or a zoom out, due to the direction of the passing of the ships (I believe they were travelling head-on and one passed over the other - the view to the viewer had one of the ships moving from background to foreground, or back to front, or a forward direction). These stars (and it wasn't all of them) were moving from left to right.

The ships in Star Trek can go up to 99.9999...% the speed of light just on impulse.. So that might account for it.

What really annoys me in Star Trek is how they never deal with Time Dilation, they are constantly putting around on impulse and then they scream, "Full impulse, now!" And they stay at that speed for countless minutes, they wouldn't need to outrun their pursuers, they could just fly around at full impulse for a few minutes and their attackers would get bored after a few weeks.. *grumbles* In the TNG: Technical Manual it discusses this and says something to the like of "Starships often have to reallign their clocks with the StarFleet main signal." Yes, I am a Trek Tech fan. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] -Colt

__________________
Be not afraid of any man no matter what his size; when danger threatens, call on me, and I will equalize.

Even if the ship was moving at Warp 9, the stars would still barely move from your point of view. A few might, slowly, but not in the numbers shown in the movie. They only show you that so that they can say that the ships were in motion.

__________________
Isn't the fact that they don't visit us proof that intelligent life is out there?

The Confused Philosopher - RCAF

Of course, the very fact that stars zip by, even when the ships are at warp, has always been a point of bad science. The stars simply would not fly by that quickly...no way, no how.

Eric

^We discussed this i the Trek Tech forum on trekbbs.com and figured that it must be particles or soemthing striking the warp bubble and dissipating. I will look for the thread but there are so many.. -Colt

__________________
Be not afraid of any man no matter what his size; when danger threatens, call on me, and I will equalize.

It's in the Enterprise review in the TV section.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Bad Astronomer on 2002-11-08 19:45 ]</font>

OH NUTS I am really sorry, Firefox, I just overwrote your post! I meant to quote it, not edit it. I cannot get it back now. My complete apologies to you.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Bad Astronomer on 2002-11-08 19:47 ]</font>

hmhm,

some details in ST have always bothered me. i don't want to open a new thread for this - but the opening scene of Generations, for instance... good idea, but... bad astronomy?

well, i'm ranting. of course they wouldn't smash the bottle in a 0-G environment just to prevent the champagne from dripping downwards...

[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

__________________
[Foot mouth in put]
Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

I have never seen this, are you talking about the very first episode of TNG? Or the movie, Generations? -Colt

__________________
Be not afraid of any man no matter what his size; when danger threatens, call on me, and I will equalize.

Particular episode names escape me, but every time you watch the Enterprise drop out of warp, you'll see the streaks revert to stars.


-Adam

He's talking about the movie Generations. Opening credits are played over a long scene of a champagne bottle slowly turning end-over-end in space, It eventually smashes against the front of the new U.S.S. Enterprise (NCC-1701-B), a nod to the old christening tradition.

When the bottle explodes against the hull, the champagne does not behave as if it and the ship are in micro-g. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

__________________
SeanF

"Ask to understand, but don't challenge unless you have the knowledge."--NEOWatcher

The contents of this post are ©2008 by SeanF and may not be copied or retransmitted in any form without the express written consent of SeanF

SHE meant that, yeah.

thanks for clarifying [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]

[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

_________________
There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and Stupidity, although I'm not so sure about the Universe. -A. Einstein

Trying to weigh up plot device and BA...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jokergirl on 2002-11-06 15:34 ]</font>

I'll have to rent it and watch it again. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Is the BA going to do a reviewo f Star Trek: Nemesis? I would really love to see him do one. -Colt

__________________
Be not afraid of any man no matter what his size; when danger threatens, call on me, and I will equalize.

Please accept my deepest apologies.

Ditto! [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

__________________
SeanF

"Ask to understand, but don't challenge unless you have the knowledge."--NEOWatcher

The contents of this post are ©2008 by SeanF and may not be copied or retransmitted in any form without the express written consent of SeanF

Hmm, my last try didn't make it (maybe the posting software scans the post to see if there's actually some content); i'll try again.

> The ships in Star Trek can go up to 99.9999...% the speed of light just on impulse <

Any real trekkies out there? In the whale movie, the Klingon bird-of-prey goes from San Francisco to Alaska on impulse. I thought it was several minutes flight time, but it's been a long time. I've got a vague memory of working out that it was consistent with a 10g acceleration/deceleration.

Of course, there's no point in looking too closely at things--trek physics is incompatible with real world physics. With sufficient handwaving, some trek physics can be explained (like the first Romulan war taking place before the warp drive had been invented. You could write a story involving sublight interstellar warfare, but it would be pretty nasty, and the war would likely end with one planet being essentially destroyed. However, you could explain that the "warp drive" was essentially two inventions--the first an FTL drive, but one that was relatively impractical (maybe available power sources were only capable of providing WF 2), the second an interface to the drive involving dilithium crystals that opened a gateway to an antimatter universe, providing abundant power and making interstellar travel and trade practical. Laziness and sloppy teaching would associate "warp engine" and FTL travel with the second invention, not the more accurate first). The handwaving is kind of fun at first, but eventually it gets tedious.