I liked the early episode (the first?) of Deep Space 9 when Cardassians are threatening the station. They fire all their photon torpedoes as a warning shot, to make the Cardassians think the station is heavily armed when it isn't.

The Ewoks didn't do too badly really. It was a fair mix of success and failure on both sides. On the one hand there were Ewoks on gliders being shot out of the sky (and it is heavily implied he was then stepped on by an AT-ST walker), blasted by Imperial AT-STs (one definitely was killed on screen) and having some of their attacks fail entirely (like trying to bring down an AT-ST by using a trip rope: it just pulled them all along behind it). On the other hand, it was the Ewoks who destroyed two of the AT-STs (releasing a pile of logs to trip one over, and using two logs swinging from trees to crush the cabin of another), and they did catch a few Stormtroopers using slings, trip wires, and sticks. It is arguable, however, that the tide of battle turned when Chewbacca successfully captured one of the AT-STs and used it to blow up another then blast the stormtroopers into retreat.

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.

Two tactics I quite liked (though nowhere near as imaginative as some others here) came from a couple of Star Trek novels. One was The Return by Wiliam Shatner, in which a Defiant class starship does a suicide run at a Romulan Warbird, only to cloak at the last second. The Romulans are confused, until it drops its cloak and reveals itself in between the double hulled main body of the Warbird, where it can't be shot at. It then puts extra power to its shields and does a roll, effectively gutting the Warbird.

The other was Invasion: First Strike. A Klingon ship and the Enterprise are both attacking a huge Fury vessel, which has no shields but has armour plated segments. In the final battle the Enterprise never fired a shot, instead using its tractor beam to wrench the armour up so the Klingons could shoot at the exposed body of the ship itself.

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.

A favorite of mine came from Steve Perry's novel The Man Who Never Missed. One man takes on a repressive government not by killing its soldiers but shooting them with a shocktox agent. The gov't is forced to take care of its paralyzed soldiers till the effect wears off.

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..just because you're a genius doesn't make you a smart guy..

Thrawn was too much of a "Know-it-all" for my taste.

Now for ST II:
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quote:
That's another reason why The Wrath of Khan is the greatest Star Trek has to offer. It's the *ONLY* time they ever acknowledge that space has three dimensions. The scene where the Enterprise ascends behind the Reliant is one of the most awesome moments in theatrical space combat.
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At the same time, they still ascend nicely aligned. Using three dimensions would allow them to fire from below or above, keeping the Enterprise perpendicular to the Reliant. But well, "greatest Star Trek" ...

There is a ST novel (Doctor's Orders) though where they use a simple probe, moving at .50c to hit an enemy ship

I agree with this general overview of the battle for the shield generator, it's just that the battle as depicted, was totally rediculous. First of all, the Emperor's Elite Stormtroopers(he called them, a Legion of his "finest troops") were totally incompetent. Weren't these the same guys who fought so well in the Clone Wars? They couldn't aim very well and their protective armor seemed to be vulnurable to arrows and rocks. In the first Ewok attack, arrows and rocks brought down many Stormtroopers. Then they broke ranks and chased the Ewoks into the forest instead of massing their troops around the shield generator. They also had at least one big AT-AT walker(it was shown in the scene when Luke turned himself in to Vader) and several At-St's at their disposal. The AT-AT was never shown as taking part in the battle and it's incredible that the "Elite" troopers would send their AT-ST's into a heavily wooded area, instead of forming a perimeter around the generator.

The easy way that Chewbacca managed to capture that AT-ST was also pretty amazing - the "Elite" troopers saw an Ewok making fun of them thru the window, then decided to open the hatch and go out and get him!

I would rather have seen a nice battle for the shield generator; involving a decent sized Rebel force, who at least had similar advanced weapons, to take the shield generator from the Imperials. The fleets fighting above Endor were also mismatched, as the Imperials had more powerful ships and outnumbered the Rebel fleet ten to one. The Rebel fleet was caught between the active Deathstar(which did destroy at least two Rebel capital ships) and the fleet of stardestroyers, but it didn't matter as victory for the Rebels was assured.

The most awful military space battle tactic ever was running away from the Death Star when they realised it was operational. It has one big weapon, and it's fixed, so it must have a very narrow firing window. Why not scatter the fleet around the Death Star and keep out of the way of its weapon? Surely the rebel ships can move faster than the Death Star can rotate? At the same time, they could then use the bulk of the Death Star to shield them from the Star Destroyers for a time.

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.

The death star was as far as I understood also a troop carrier; it had a lot of smaller craft that could cause quite a lot of trouble even if the star destroyers and the death star itself couldn't.

But hey, it's a space opera. Galaxy Quest had cleverer tactics than all the grand moffs together, and they were actors.

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Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

"Half of what I say is meaningless, but I say it so that the other half may reach you."

Yeah, the three dimensional space bit is still daftly ignored, most notably when the viewscreen clears just long enough for Kirk and crew to realise they are heading straight for the Reliant. Kirk orders an evasive move that turns the Enterprise broadside on, presenting almost the largest possible target for the Reliant's phasers, which do indeed hit it.

Even with all the CGI battles in later series of Star Trek, it still seems mostly 2D. The only scene that really springs to mind as being a truly 3D approach to a battle is when the future Enterprise decloaks in All Good Things... and blasts the two Klingon cruisers from directly underneath, passing through at 90 degrees to the plane of the Klingon vessels.

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.

Oh yes, I meant to mention the ship dragging the magnetic mines in that movie....

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.

I've read, but I can't confirm, that the Mighty Victory of the Ewoks was originally conceived by Lucas to be the Mighty Victory of the Wookies. Lucas had a grand idea of exploring the theme of Stone-Age Primitives Defeats Modern Technology (a romantic notion albeit rarely occurring in our world). However, when plotting out Ep. 4, Lucas had no idea that the franchise would be as successful as it was, so he couldn't count on the bank roll to make Ep 6.

So with the prospect of not being able to introduce Wookies at all, Lucas decided to move Chewie as a main character up into Ep 4, give him some technical skills (since it wouldn't make sense for Han Solo to adopt a primitive animal to be a co-pilot of a temperamental ship) and hope for the best. Had Lucas known that SW would be a success (again, this may be just scuttlebutt) then the copilot would have been some other character altogether, and the last Death Star would have been assembled over the forest moon of Kashyyyk, only to be defeated by the locals. It would have resembled what we saw during Ep. 3. At least then you have the superior size and strength of the Wookies to enhance their primitive technology.

Instead, we got Attack of the Teddy Bears to appeal to the Sesame Street demographic.

Again, it's just what I heard.

Yeah, hiding behind the other side of Deathstar would have at least bought the Rebels more time. The tactic of taking on the fleet of stardestroyers at point blanc range was not very good, considering that they would be severely outgunned and outnumbered. Even Admiral Akbar commented that they would not last long against the stardestroyers. Also, there was no guarentee that the shield would ever be deactivated. The shield should have remained operational, the Rebel fleet destroyed, and Luke Skywalker should have joined his father - to rule the galaxy, father and son!!

Interesting. Yep, something like the battle in Ep. 3 would have been much better. The Wookies were much more advanced than the Ewoks.

Actually, the big question about the space battle in Return of the Jedi is why the Rebels brought along their bigger ships at all? Fighters were used to destroy the second Death Star just like the first, and the fighters have their own hyperdrives, so why did Ackbar and his buddies bother to come along in their bigger ships?

And when did the Ewoks get the time to build log falls and swinging log traps and catapults to take on the Imperial AT-STs? Didn't they just barely decide to fight them the night before? And wasn't the use of the back door a spur-of-the moment idea, and didn't Wicket run off to get the Ewok army only after they saw that their Rebel friends were about to be captured?

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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

Replicative fading, if I may be permitted to cross franchises.

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SeanF

"Ask to understand, but don't challenge unless you have the knowledge."--NEOWatcher

The contents of this post are ©2009 by SeanF and may not be copied or retransmitted in any form without the express written consent of SeanF

In Asimov's "Foundation" humans had flown and fought in space for one hundred thousand years, and they STILL use two-dimensional tactics! And it's not an oversight on Asimov's part -- when Bel Riose wins a major battle by utilizing third dimension, the losing side accuses him of cheating. IOW, Asimov clearly thought of the matter, just his conclusion is flatly incredible.

I think Asimov always regarded vast majority of human beings as collectivist, tradition-bound, and unwilling to experiment. (Socially experiment, that is.) Which is not surprising for a Russian Jew who grew up in Brooklyn during Great Depression. There are few rugged individualists in immigrant tenements, and even fewer during Depression.

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Fiction has to be plausible. Reality is under no such constraint.

I don't remember that (just my bad memory). Which battle?

I remember Riose talking to Ducem Barr (or was it Lathan Devers?) about the Previous Inclosure maneuver, which from context was obviously an englobement of the Terminus system.

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If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers.

It was not a battle against Foundation -- it happened earlier.

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Fiction has to be plausible. Reality is under no such constraint.

I will check this evening.

Of course, calling the big ones 'ships of the line' is in itself a bit of a Nelsonish anachronism.

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If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers.

Has anyone here read "The Man Who Used The Universe" by Alan Dean Foster? Its hard not to spoil the whole book if I give away the ending...

As I will never read anything by Foster again, go ahead.

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Fiction has to be plausible. Reality is under no such constraint.

Something similar is established tactical doctrine in some military and paramilitary groups already... not with a specialized drug for the task but with a practice of sometimes using normal, lethal weapons non-lethally or even not-immediately-lethally, such as shooting the legs. The idea is not only that "non-vital" parts are less protected, but also that the whole group's combat effectiveness is then compromised by the burden of helping even just a few wounded, whereas if those few had been killed then the rest could still operate freely. There's also the sniper trick of shooting one member of a group non-fatally, repeatedly if necessary, to draw the other members of his group out from cover to be shot (as shown in Saving Private Ryan and Full Metal Jacket).

Somewhat OT, but I'm curious about your reasons. Is it his writing style? I often roll my eyes at his writing, but he hasn't quite annoyed me to the point I would actively avoid it (on the other hand, Harry Turtledove and James P. Hogan are on my permanent "avoid" list, for different reasons).

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

I suppose it is style. I find Alan Dean Foster's books very juvenile.

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Fiction has to be plausible. Reality is under no such constraint.

I prefer his earlier work to his more recent stuff. In fact, the first Sci-Fi book I ever read was by ADF ("Midworld") and it ignited my interest in both Sci-Fi and astronomy! They can be juvenile, it's not hard SF, but his work from the 70's and early 80's is good for an enjoyable read. I prefer Alistair Reynolds or Stephen Baxter nowadays!

Anyway, The Man Who Used the Universe is one of his better works in my opinion.

"His true motives remain a mystery. A criminal mastermind who gave up his place at the head of his society's dark underworld to become a legitimate member of Evenwaith’s cities, Loo-Macklin begins reaching out to to powerful enemies - the aliens called the Nuel. While Loo-Macklin negotiates an illusory peace agreement and gains precious alien secrets in the process, questions remain: Is he after peace, power or pure evil? Time runs out for the answers, as enemy starships begin to amass...."

SPOILER
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I'm beginning to wish I hadn't mentioned this book now, as it isn't a military tactic at all, rather it is a giant political strategy. You see, Loo-Macklin does deep space exploration and discovers there is a strong warlike race that will likely discover either his people or the Nuel soon, and separately neither will be able to defeat them. So he engineers a giant scheme to bring us together with our current enemies in order that we will be able to cooperate against a foe that would destroy both of us.

One of my favorite novels is Dread Empires Fall: The Praxis.
If I remember correctly, an enemy fleet is forced to go through some bone crushing g-forces, (no inertial dampers) after the worm hole to another star system is tugged out from underneath their feet. I am sorry, its being years since I read the book, though I would LOVE to own it. One thing I really like is how the aliens, are people.

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Here's a creative space military tactic for you, from the brilliant mind of Larry Niven:

Imperial scientists explain to the Emperor their theory that the universe is "hard-wired" to prevent time travel, on account of time travel leading to paradoxes, and paradoxes leading to the destruction of the universe, and the universe's existence being assumed, axiomatically, to negate any possibility of its non-existence. Or something like that.

As evidence in support of their theory, the imperial scientists point to the historical record of thousands of civilizations, all of which have met with some apocalyptic disaster while on the verge of perfecting time travel.

Then they propose a strategy: They have found an artifact, left over from an alien civilization, that is definitely a working time-travel device. If they were to leak the location and nature of the artifact to the enemies of the empire, those enemies would seize it, attempt to use it, and be utterly destroyed in the ensuing apocalypse.

Definitely a creative strategy.

And what about "creative" in the sense of "artistic"?

The Culture's desctruction of an orbital by means of a carefully-considered pattern of exotic weapon strikes in Consider Phlebas certainly qualifies.

And while we're on the subject of Banks, what about Grey Area's cleverly hidden spoiler that affords it a sudden tactical advantage over its competitors, in Excession?

Reminds me of Stranger in a Strange Land, in which the Old Ones lament about the artistic masterpiece of blowing up the fifth planet and its inhabitants (the asteroid belt).

If we're talking artistic, The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.
Nothing more fun than telling your enemies where not to go and watch them flock to the place...

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Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

"Half of what I say is meaningless, but I say it so that the other half may reach you."