Why is that company still in business? Or at least take the commercials off the air and make them advetise in UFO mags where the average public wont be exposed to their lies? We had an eldery lady came to a starparty a couple of years ago and wanted to see the star named after her dead son. So one of our members took the coordinates she had with her, pretended to point the telescope, found a small field of faint stars and told her "third one from the left is it." She left happy. But afterwards, we talked about wheather that was the right thing to do. How can they get away with something that is so easy to prove is false? Every time I hear that commercial, I want to put my fist through the radio. After all only the IAU can approve a name for an astronomical object. :x

Surely what they're doing is illegal. The customer is paying to have a star named and the company is lying about delivering.

I sympathise with the moral dilemma. You either tell her that this company exploited her grief or lie about showing her the star.

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Freedom For Fission A breath of fresh Iodine-131

I looked up the site and while is is misleading, it does say that the names are looked up in their directory and can be found using their coordinates. Nowhere does it say that it's the IAU directory. Now Mattel is in on the action with them, selling star dolls with the registry option included. They probably had a good team of lawyers look at it. I do think they should have a disclaimer. However, inferrence is not implication.

Frankly I think any business should be prohibited from using psuedo-oficial names and terminology in blatant attempts at sleight-of-pen. I hate it when I get mail that looks like official government correspondence only like "RUSH, URGENT, AIRMAIL" and such when it ain't.

Didn't someone have a tax scam using the same IRS initials... didn't they get jailtime or something.

At least this one doesn't imply ownership, like lunar land grabs do.

JPax

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"Oh no no no I'm a rocket man Rocket man burning out his fuse up here alone." -- Sir Elton John

J Pax

The only one I heard with the IRS was a real doozy where a check made out to IRS became MRS <INSERT NAME HERE IN ALL CAPS>

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"I always look for a woman who has a tattoo. I see a woman with a tattoo, and I'm thinking, 'OK, here's a gal who's capable of making a decision she'll regret in the future.'"- Richard Jeni.

No, but they do imply that when you name a star -- even though astronomers won't use the name you give it -- no one else will be able to name that star.

And, of course, even this tepid implication isn't true -- one person can name a star through starregistry.com, and another person can name the same star through starwishing.com. (And who knows how many other star naming "services" there are out there?)

In that sense, they do kinda-sorta imply "ownership" which isn't the case.

So we could all just pick a star and name it, for free, couldn't we? It would have the same import as going through one of those star registry things, unless, of course, you want to see it in print in a big "star registry."

You could always just print out your own registry of one.

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"Eternal vigilance is the price of supremacy"
------------Mark Twain

"Women are like Voltron. The more you can hook up, the better it gets."

The worst part is that it's not like there's a shortage of unnamed stars out there.

I can just see the future now:

500 years from now, after developing FTL travel, a group of colonists settle a planet a few hundred light years from Earth. This is the first habitable planet discovered and a big deal is made of it.

Then it is revealed that 500 years prior, one of the leaders of the colony's ancestor named the star using StarRegistrar.com while another leader's named it using StarWishing.com.

Things escalate and war breaks out. It spreads back to Earth and we end up bombing ourselves back into the Bronze Age on both worlds.

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People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.

[quote="tracer"]That's what I meant. I bet that they don't name the star twice in their own directory. But then again, maybe they'll decide that so many people want Polaris named after them that they split it into acerage, or maybe sunspots. More likely, the same company will publish a new book periodically, so that each publishing is an independent registry. See, the legal mind at work.

JPax

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"Oh no no no I'm a rocket man Rocket man burning out his fuse up here alone." -- Sir Elton John

J Pax

Both of my kids are intensely interested in space (can't imagine where they get that from! ) and both love being outside looking at the starry night sky. To my family, Venus is Jessie's star after my serenely beautiful 6-year old daughter. Sirius is Nicky's star after my bright, colourful, cheerful 4-year old.

Makes them feel special, didn't cost a cent, and has exactly the same validity as StarRegistry. And everyone is free to use exactly the same ones.

Incidentally, at the small observatory where I work, we often come across the problem of people wanting to 'see' the stars that have purchased for their loved ones. Normally, we just smile and nod and train the telescope on the appropriate co-ordinates & hazard a guess at the right star.

However, a few weeks back, a dear old lady came to us who had 'bought' a star for her recently deceased husband of many years. It was 13th magnitude in the starfields of Sagittarius - like looking for a grain of sand on a beach. I trained the telescope onto the jewel that is Canopus and made a mental note that if ever I found one of these shysters, that they would not make another such sale while in possession of their own teeth......

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"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams

AGN, you obviously handle the new "star owners" with great grace. I'm glad you didn't break the elderly lady's bubble. And if you ever do get your hands on the purveyors of this scam, I would love to help you "reason with them." :wink: I also recall that many, many years ago, when I was young and single, my main squeeze and I, having identified Venus in the evening sky, named the bright star nearest to Venus "Eddie" and considered them "our stars."

I haven't really given this issue a lot of thought before. Interesting.

AGN do you think there is harm to the living in naming a star after a dead relative? Was that woman comforted to see a star that was "named" after her husband?

I guess it boils down to the question of false advertising. Do the people who buy these stars understand that the names are not considered official by the astronomical community and therefore it is only "official" in the registry of the company they "bought" the star name from?

I like the idea of privately naming a star for your children. I'll have to take the kids out and do that sometime.
Its free and to a young child it won't matter a bit that its not official.

The issue is not to have a star by which to remember people. The issue is these companies are selling nothing apart from a pretty certificate. The name the company gives to the star is no more valid than if you privately named it yourself. Yet they are giving the impression to the punters that because they've paid $50 (!), all of a sudden it has some kind of legitimacy.

I've been reading the British office.

They cannot possibly argue that their service involves choosing some star for them to love and cherish. They are definitely giving the impression that the naming is legitimate. I remember a few years ago, the Liquid Helium Queen Anne Robinson hosted Watchdog, a consumer awareness programme, designed to trash on companies that deliver a crap service. There was a section on a star naming company, probably this one, where they pointed out that anyone can publish a book in these types of libraries. That doesn't mean it is IAU approved. Sir Patrick also appeared to trash the company.

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Freedom For Fission A breath of fresh Iodine-131

Wow... This non-sense has always gone in one ear and out the other, but after reading that I realize... that's really messed up. I think you did the right thing by telling her that, that star was hers. That's sad

AGN do you think there is harm to the living in naming a star after a dead relative? Was that woman comforted to see a star that was "named" after her husband?

In principle, no - provided that the person is aware that the 'name' has no formal status. But the same result can be achieved by buying a star chart & picking a pretty/interesting/significant for whatever reason star yourself - no-one is going to argue.

Normally with these (at least here in Oz), the stars 'allocated' are 7th or 8th mag and they usually also give a crude star chart - so it is possible to identify the specific star. What annoyed me in this particular case was that the lady had received a 'star' that would have been quite indistinguishable from the countless other stars that would have been in the same FOV - as well as being from a practical perspective unidentifiable from the broad co-ordinates that she had been given. I mean - 13th magnitude, for heaven's sake! :x She had sought something personal and unique, but that's not really what she received.

I must admit also that my motives were not completely altruistic. Sagittarius was still several hours away from rising, whereas Canopus was still a reasonable altitude above the SW horizon, but low enough that it was shimmering & very colourful through an SCT - I just thought at the time (rightly or wrongly) that it would make a better tribute than some 13th mag speck in a sea of specks.

Was she comforted? Don't know. I hope so.

I like the idea of privately naming a star for your children. I'll have to take the kids out and do that sometime.
Its free and to a young child it won't matter a bit that its not official.

Do it - it's fun! And it is a great excuse to get the kids away from the TV and out under a dark sky. 8)

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"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams

You could always go get a blank book and draw your own star chart. You can also put in other important items in it. Then it could be saved and cherished from generation to generation. For all of your descendents, it will have more legitimacy than any purchased name registry. And who knows, maybe in the future, after book-burners have torched all of human history, they could start over with you've saved. Is that how the arab names stayed in usage?

JPax

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"Oh no no no I'm a rocket man Rocket man burning out his fuse up here alone." -- Sir Elton John

J Pax

As I said, I haven't really given this issue too much thought before. My initial reaction when I first heard about this a few years ago was that it is a ridiculous scam.

But I want to play devil's advocate here because its possible that we've got a biased view (being oriented toward the science of astronomy).

To use a different example consider flowers. They have common names and scientific latin names. Which is the real name? Well it depends upon your purpose. For the average person they see the "sunflower" while the scientist knows the same plant as Helianthus Annuus. Is the scientists name any more correct than the common name? That really depends upon the purpose. For scientific classification the answer is yes. For the average person the common name is the better name.

Why should it be any different for the stars? The formal scientific names or identifications of stars are useful for scientific cataloging and cross comparisons from different data sources. But what difference does that make to the average person not involved in amateur astronomy or astronomical research?

Ambitious people could certainly name a few stars themselves - or even make up their own constellations. But what these star naming companies are doing is offering a service. They're saying they'll create a "registry" and select specific stars for which people can buy the rights to name those stars in that registry. If we object strongly to the star registry companies aren't we really saying that we think only astronomers have the "right" to name stars? Who authorized astronomers as the sole proprietors of star naming? What harm is being done by companies setting up their own registry for naming stars so that the "little person" on the street can participate in naming the stars up there? The purpose in this case is not scientific.

I think someone could make this argument. As long as the product is not improperly advertised so that the purchaser gets the impression they are buying a government or IAU sanctioned name, is there really a crime here. They aren't suggesting that the people have bought the star itself. Its a business. If there is a market for the product, then it will sell. The product that they're offering is a chance for a person to purchase a personalized name for a specific star in a specific registry that is published even though not affiliated with any government or the IAU.

A productive idea might be to actually evaluate the quality of the product offered by these star naming companies. How much scientific information do they provide about the star? Do they give accurate coordinates, spectral class, surface temperature, color, distance, the official scientific name/number of the star and so on? Do they give the purchaser a choice of certain stellar characteristics? Do they provide a short booklet about the actual scientific naming and basics of stars?

Ok, I've just played devil's advocate and in this case I think I swayed myself to the position that the star registry's should be left alone as long as they're not guilty of false/misleading product advertising. However, they should be encouraged to take an educational approach to their product if they do not already.

Yes, I take your point, but I think it is more complex than that:

To use a different example consider flowers. They have common names and scientific latin names. Which is the real name? Well it depends upon your purpose. For the average person they see the "sunflower" while the scientist knows the same plant as Helianthus Annuus. Is the scientists name any more correct than the common name? That really depends upon the purpose. For scientific classification the answer is yes. For the average person the common name is the better name.

And a sunflower to you is a sunflower to me is a sunflower to Joe Anybody. The visible stars (at least, the brighter ones) also all have common names - Sirius, Canopus, Antares, Betelgeuse etc etc etc, which date back to antiquity. For the average person looking up at the night sky - I'm afraid that all those stars were claimed by Greek & Arabic shepherds a couple of millenia ago!

Why should it be any different for the stars? The formal scientific names or identifications of stars are useful for scientific cataloging and cross comparisons from different data sources. But what difference does that make to the average person not involved in amateur astronomy or astronomical research?

Not a whit, it is true. But the bright stars are already claimed, so in general we are looking at assigning names for those stars that require binos or telescopes to see. But there are a number of these star registries operating - suppose Star Registry A takes star HD102667 and allocates it as "Bob", while Star Registry B takes HD102667 and calls it "Alice". Who is right?

The short answer is "Who cares". The astronomer will call it HD102667, Bob will call it Bob and Alice will call it Alice. So why do we need the registry at all? Bob & Alice are both free (and free is the operative word!) to just wander out one pleasant summer evening, pick a pretty star and name it after themselves. No-one is stopping them.

Of course, if Bob & Alice want to have a fancy certificate that actually says that HD102667 is now called Bob or Alice, then so be it. But they must be aware that no other human being beyond that specific Star Registry will have any idea that this is now so. The layperson won't bother (who wants to know the name of a star you can't even see?) and the astronomers won't care, because it is an ambiguous nomenclature.

But what these star naming companies are doing is offering a service. They're saying they'll create a "registry" and select specific stars for which people can buy the rights to name those stars in that registry.

Aye, and there's the rub. The naming rights to these stars are not really theirs to sell. Who gave them the authority to sell these rights? Once again, I can go out into the yard and name Venus after my beautiful daughter, with exactly the same validity as these Star Registries.

If we object strongly to the star registry companies aren't we really saying that we think only astronomers have the "right" to name stars? Who authorized astronomers as the sole proprietors of star naming?

But the IAU is not selling the naming rights. Astronomers per se have no more right to name stars than the man in the street. The IAU allocates a nomenclature that is then used by astronomers around the world. If I take the spectrum of good ol' HD102667 and send an e-mail to 20 astronomers around the world to run the same spectrum, I can be confident that we will all be looking at the same object, because we will all be using the IAU catalogues. If I send that e-mail asking them to check out Bob for me, I'll probably get arrested.

What harm is being done by companies setting up their own registry for naming stars so that the "little person" on the street can participate in naming the stars up there? The purpose in this case is not scientific.

There is no harm, provided that the buyer is aware that astronomers at the VLT are not going to be doing interferometry work on Nigel Crutcheon III tonight. The problem is, that the registries make the sale as though the name will have some sort of validity - but that is not so, it cannot be so. The lady I mentioned earlier had (I suspect) paid money to have her beloved husband immortalised in the heavens. A noble and honourable sentiment. Some huckster took her cash, gave her a star that she will never be able to see, a pretty piece of paper and then moved on to the next rube. I'm afraid that I don't see that as harmless entrepreneurialism - I see that as a scam.

As long as the product is not improperly advertised so that the purchaser gets the impression they are buying a government or IAU sanctioned name, is there really a crime here.

But that is exactly how it is pitched.

Its a business. If there is a market for the product, then it will sell. The product that they're offering is a chance for a person to purchase a personalized name for a specific star in a specific registry that is published even though not affiliated with any government or the IAU.

But it comes back to what the buyer is being told. If the buyer is informed that he or she can go out and name their own star with exactly the same validity, but still chooses to purchase a star from the vendor so that they can have their name written in a published registry, then that is their choice. But then they are effectively aware that what they are buying is a certificate and their name in print.

A productive idea might be to actually evaluate the quality of the product offered by these star naming companies. How much scientific information do they provide about the star? Do they give accurate coordinates, spectral class, surface temperature, color, distance, the official scientific name/number of the star and so on? Do they give the purchaser a choice of certain stellar characteristics? Do they provide a short booklet about the actual scientific naming and basics of stars?

By and large, no. If you have a copy of Phil Plait's outstanding tome Bad Astronomy ( :wink: ), note the comment made by one of these registries as to what would happen if a persons duly named star happened to fall from the sky. They indicate that if the star does fall from the sky, they will be only too happy to name another one, free of charge. Little more need be said as to the educative motivations of such people.

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"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams