" WASTE ANYTHING but TIME!!! "

So I have this perverse fondness for lists, and to that effect, I checked The New York Times Guide to the Best 1000 Movies Ever Made out of my local library. I have three problems with this book.

Number one, unless I've missed entering a few into my database (yes, I keep databases; how else do you know what you should go looking for?), there aren't actually 1000.

Number two, "ever made" means "with sound." The earliest film is 1927, The Jazz Singer. Which, for the record, isn't actually high on my list of best movies ever made. Not even in the top 1000.

Number three . . . it almost appears to be "not actually 1000 sound movies we've picked out of a hat." Oh, you've got your Kane, your Seventh Seal, your Ikiru. And I've long since resigned myself to the fact that people will keep putting Titanic on this sort of list, for all I'm not entirely sure why. But Total Recall? Suddenly, Last Summer? Whatever Happened to Baby Jane is a terrible movie, which is almost the point! Face/Off? On what planet is Face/Off one of the best films ever made?

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

On planet Quality Means "How many people bought tickets?"

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‘To those who regard “crime fiction” as some sacred icon which must follow a rigid formula, I will always be the man who writes 18-syllable haiku.’Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.

Gillian, try "1001 Movies You Must See Before You Die" by Stephen Schneider. Better selection, goes year by year, aims more for a "completist film buff" perspective then trying to say which ones are "best", and includes some pretty kickass silent movies, like Sherlock Jr and Haxan.

I don't like "Best movie" lists anyway. I could never say, for instance, that "Citizen Kane", for all its many virtues, is a better cinematic experience than say, "The Shining", but "Citizen Kane" is a far more complex narrative featuring some brilliant characterisations. Both are good for entirely different reasons. And besides, if you start imposing an artistic absolutism onto movies, you fall into the trap of the Halliwells film "guide", which helpfully informs you that there hasn't been a decent movie made since 1981, so actually going to the cinema is a waste of money.

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There is a growing tendancy to think of Man as a rational, thinking being, which is absurd.- Marvin the Martian.

It's gotten to the point where careful investigation is needed just to tell parody from reality. I think that means reality is broken.- Noclevername.

Yes, I have that one. It also features such dreadful choices as There's Something About Mary and The Apartment. (And, alas, Titanic.) It does have a good silent film selection, and I believe more documentaries than such lists normally contain. (I have one which doesn't have any, not even Hoop Dreams.) Now, I've seen some good movies because they were on that list, but I've also seen some real turkeys.

Citizen Kane is, to me, objectively better. The Shining is a very pretty movie, as Kubrick films always are. (Why does Barry Lyndon always make these lists?) However, I don't think it has much of any characterization; it took away pretty much all of it that was in the book. That doesn't make it a bad movie, just not as good a movie. I don't watch it much, though, because I've read the book.

It's not artistic absolutism which denies the existence of good films post-1981; it's film snobbery. I may seem snobbish, but I also genuinely love cinema. I like a lot of the movies I've mentioned which I don't think are terribly good. Heck, I own Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? It's still a bad movie, and to call it one of the best movies ever made is to leave something better off.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I have to agree with Stephen King that Jack Nicholson was the wrong choice for the lead of The Shining. Sure, few people play crazy better than Nicholson, but (young) Nicholson looks crazy even when playing normal. The point of the book was that the house took over a truly normal person and made him crazy, not someone that looks like he's just waiting for an excuse to pop.

I don't know actors from the early 80s well enough to make an alternative suggestion. Jason Robards, maybe? Timothy Hutton? Henry Fonda?

Definitely not Henry Fonda. Peter, possibly! Timothy Hutton would have been a bit on the young side. Personally, I like the idea of casting a nobody; we'd go in without expecting anything in particular about them.

Again, I don't dispute that it's a beautiful movie. I just think it misses the mark in presenting the story.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I agree that Henry Fonda would have been too old (he was 75 in 1980), but I think he might have made an interesting choice if it had been made earlier, with people expecting him to be the hero of the piece.
C'era una volta il West showed that he could definitely do psychopathic evil really well.

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‘To those who regard “crime fiction” as some sacred icon which must follow a rigid formula, I will always be the man who writes 18-syllable haiku.’Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.

I knew "The Shining" was a bad comparison. Were it not edging up to Halloween I would have picked "2001: A Space Odyssey". But hey, you're looking at someone who treasures a good scare. And however unsettling "Citizen Kane"'s depiction of the soulless, selfish loneliness that is the price of true power, it won't make you jump out of your seat.

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There is a growing tendancy to think of Man as a rational, thinking being, which is absurd.- Marvin the Martian.

It's gotten to the point where careful investigation is needed just to tell parody from reality. I think that means reality is broken.- Noclevername.

I know this is really nitpicky, but full-length movie titles get italicized.

Okay. Now that I've got that out of my system!

I agree that, at a certain level, it becomes difficult and a matter of taste. I happen to think Citizen Kane is a better movie than 2001 (I know; blasphemy!), but I can certainly see an argument for the other way 'round. I do think it's one of the Kubrick movies where the characterization isn't as flat, and it does have a great "villain."

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Ironically, I'd disagree with you there. I think the characterisation in 2001 (There. Fiddly markup done just for you ) is almost inhumanly flat, but I also think that was the point. Humans aren't important in that story; they're just one stop on the road to transcendence.

But does a movie have to tick artistic boxes to qualify as great? Can't a movie just be really funny, or really scary, or dramatically uplifting? To qualify as great, must it have all the attributes of Kane? If we were to judge all art in this manner, where would that leave the music of John Cage?

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There is a growing tendancy to think of Man as a rational, thinking being, which is absurd.- Marvin the Martian.

It's gotten to the point where careful investigation is needed just to tell parody from reality. I think that means reality is broken.- Noclevername.

Honestly? Yes. Yes, it does. To be "great," a film should have an interesting story, developed characters, talented actors, high-quality filming, good music, and I'd even argue for cultural impact. It can be "landmark," "really good," and any number of other descriptions. But a great film, in any way but the generic "hey, great," must be great in most aspects. If not, well, it's falling short of the mark of true greatness.

Of course, yes, I consider substantially fewer movies "great" than most people. I do have a very long list of "really good," though.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. How would you describe the characterisation in Fantasia? The story of The Exterminating Angel? The acting in a documentary? The music in silent film? The quality filming of Breaking the Waves?

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There is a growing tendancy to think of Man as a rational, thinking being, which is absurd.- Marvin the Martian.

It's gotten to the point where careful investigation is needed just to tell parody from reality. I think that means reality is broken.- Noclevername.

The constraints the director chose voluntarily to film within did not actually remove the possibility of great cinematography, it just removed several shortcuts to good.

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‘To those who regard “crime fiction” as some sacred icon which must follow a rigid formula, I will always be the man who writes 18-syllable haiku.’Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.

On a subject being discussed a few hours ago:

I've long thought that famous actors with familiar faces should play
characters who are supposed to be famous, while unknown actors should
play people who are not famous. I don't know why that should work, but
to at least some extent, it seems to.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

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http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

"I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

"The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves

Let's see.

1. Outstanding, actually, given the lack of dialogue. Remember the littlest mushroom in the Nutcracker Suite segment? The hippo ballerina? Chernabog?

2. Haven't seen it.

3. In this case, not acting so much as connection with the camera--or ignoring it when appropriate.

4. What, you never heard of silent film scoring? They weren't silent in the theatre. Heck, certain screenings of one of the silent versions of Carmen (yes, I know) included orchestras and choirs, though I assume they were limited to New York and Los Angeles.

5. Haven't seen it.

There would have to be an awful lot of biopics or else an awful lot of people would end up out of a job. I think there are some roles where a name actor can damage the part, but by and large, I think there's a reason people have heard of a lot of them.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Silent films often had no original score and were scored by different stock pieces according to the theatres they were shown in.

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There is a growing tendancy to think of Man as a rational, thinking being, which is absurd.- Marvin the Martian.

It's gotten to the point where careful investigation is needed just to tell parody from reality. I think that means reality is broken.- Noclevername.

They usually had a score. What didn't often happen was the score's getting to the theatres in more isolated places. And I have to tell you--the "great" ones had scores. This is largely because the people who made the great ones put in the extra effort, which is my point behind why a great film needs as much as it does. It was just one more thing which was important to the filmmakers.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Okay, I've finally seen Gran Torino. Oddly, the thing which struck me the most about it was that my sister has a female friend from Vietnam named Thao. I'm wondering if it's a name not unlike "Ashley" or "Pat."

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I believe it's a common Hmong family name (i.e., not the given name).

In the movie, it's clearly a given name.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

By that as it is, I still believe it to be a family name, at least outside the movies. I'm not certain, however. Perhaps your sister knows for sure? Her friend certainly should.

It was certainly her friend's given name--the family name was Tran--but her friend isn't Hmong, so I don't know for sure if it's the same in their culture. Still, since all the Hmong characters were played by Hmong actors, surely someone would have pointed it out.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Didn't a certain Mr Charles Chaplin often compose scores for his films? I know there's the famous example of the song Smile from the film Limelight, but I have it in my mind that he'd composed many scores and could add "decent composer" to his considerable list of talents.

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I offer a complete and utter retraction. The imputation was totally without basis in fact, was in no way fair comment and was motivated purely by malice. I deeply regret any distress that my comments may have caused you or your family, and I hereby undertake not to repeat any such slander at any time in the future.

Oh, yes. It's the only competitive Oscar he ever won, though admittedly well after the silent era was over.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I agree. That is an odd thing to strike one about Gran Torino...

Personally, I found the movie profoundly moving in ways I still haven't quite figured out how to put into words.

By the end of your first sentence, I was excitedly looking forward to reading your own insightful and eloquent take on it. By the end of your third sentence, I admit to experiencing a mild bout of let-down.

I can tell you a lot more, or link you to my review, but that was my first thought. I can't help it. Blame the school system which threw Thao into classes with my sister, or vice versa.

One of the scenes I found most interesting was when Walt took Thao into the barber's to teach him how Americans interact, but they were horrified by their own words coming out of Thao's mouth, because saying that kind of thing just wasn't right. Only it wasn't right from Thao, and it didn't change what they said--as evidenced by Walt's interaction with another character in, what, the very next scene?

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I get a haircut in an old-fashioned barbershop about once a month, located on the square of a smallish town, and I've never ONCE heard that sort of language spoken in that scene. Never have I heard that sort of offensive jocularity only to be uttered by members of the inside group.

Any club in which I would have to speak like that in order to be accepted is one in which I would have no interest in joining.

Borrowed a DVD from the library, Mr. Majestyk an action flick from '74. Last time I saw this was late 70's, nice to see it still stands up as a pretty good action movie. Stars Charles Bronson as a watermelon farmer, who wrongs a mobster and must eventually defend himself from attacks. Next I have to see if they (or another branch) has The Mechanic - Bronson as a hitman, who trains a newbie (Jan Michael Vincent), which turns into a pupil vs. teacher film, once the pupil gets the job of taking out the teacher.

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" The universe is running away
I heard it on the news just the other day
There's this new stuff called dark energy
We can't measure and we can't see..." - from Jimmy Buffett's What if the hokey pokey is all it really is about?

I watched Hara-kiri, or Seppuku in Japanese, yesterday. Quite good.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"