Chatroom
 

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > General Interest > Small Media at Large
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

   

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #121 (permalink)  
Old 06-April-2008, 03:56 PM
Paul Beardsley's Avatar
Paul Beardsley Paul Beardsley is online now
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Havant, England
Posts: 4,845
Default

The problem with being too inclusive is that you allow in examples that display none of the virtues of the category in question.

To my mind, science fiction is good because it provokes thought; it encourages critical thinking; it produces genuinely valuable speculation; it has a quality of cognitive estrangement and defamiliarisation (where, for example, you suddenly find your ordinary life to be quite startlingly strange); it teaches you science (or better still, makes you want to learn more science); it brings the past, the future, and distant worlds to life; and probably quite a few other things I haven't thought of.

Furthermore, I think SF should deal with the possibilities implied by the premise. If a woman discovers she can levitate, then gets involved in a lengthy series of events that have nothing whatsoever to do with her ability to levitate, one may wonder why the story wasn't about an ordinary woman.

I do not consider superhero stories to be SF, regardless of the rationale behind their superpowers. Let's face it, the existence of djinn or Greek gods randomly bestowing powers on heroes is better science than the idea of genetic mutation giving somebody metal blades in his hands. All superhero stories are fantasy, then, but then, all fiction is fantasy, and we tend to have certain expectations of things labelled fantasy. So it would make more sense simply to call them Superhero Stories.

Superhero Stories are of little interest to me, partly because they tend to have none of the virtues of SF that I listed above, and partly because it's bloomin' boring to watch people punching each other through walls and doing generally impossible things that I can't relate to, then angsting on about it.
Reply With Quote
  #122 (permalink)  
Old 06-April-2008, 04:33 PM
Alasdhair Alasdhair is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 354
Default

Ah, but to mainstream literati, nothing that is good can possibly be science fiction...
__________________
If our brains were simple enough for us to understand, we'd be so simple we couldn't

QQR
Reply With Quote
  #123 (permalink)  
Old 06-April-2008, 05:21 PM
Paul Beardsley's Avatar
Paul Beardsley Paul Beardsley is online now
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Havant, England
Posts: 4,845
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alasdhair View Post
Ah, but to mainstream literati, nothing that is good can possibly be science fiction...
Yes, but they don't run the world, and not everybody cares about their narrow ideas about what can and cannot be worth reading.

I think SF continues to gain respectability. In a world undergoing such huge technological (or technology-driven) changes, it's no longer possible to pretend that these things are irrelevant.
Reply With Quote
  #124 (permalink)  
Old 06-April-2008, 07:00 PM
KaiYeves's Avatar
KaiYeves KaiYeves is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Currently on assignment on planet shown in avatar photo
Posts: 9,951
Default

I'm writing a story about an extraterrestrial character who interacts with conventional superheroes, but their only "power" besides advanced intelect is regenerating lost limbs like a sea star or salamander. Is that believable?
__________________
I want to go back to the moon.
I don't care which rocket you use, whichever one you pick, I'll like it, I swear.

"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek
Reply With Quote
  #125 (permalink)  
Old 06-April-2008, 07:13 PM
Paul Beardsley's Avatar
Paul Beardsley Paul Beardsley is online now
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Havant, England
Posts: 4,845
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiYeves View Post
I'm writing a story about an extraterrestrial character who interacts with conventional superheroes, but their only "power" besides advanced intelect is regenerating lost limbs like a sea star or salamander. Is that believable?
That could be made believable if, for instance, it sounded as if it was based on real biological research into the animals you mention, and if it was a reasonably slow process that required them to eat enough food to build up their body mass.

I wouldn't really call those people superheroes, going by this description.
Reply With Quote
  #126 (permalink)  
Old 06-April-2008, 07:20 PM
KaiYeves's Avatar
KaiYeves KaiYeves is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Currently on assignment on planet shown in avatar photo
Posts: 9,951
Default

Quote:
That could be made believable if, for instance, it sounded as if it was based on real biological research into the animals you mention, and if it was a reasonably slow process that required them to eat enough food to build up their body mass.
Yes, the Gadrin (The species) evolved from animals that could regenerate. Through genetic tinkering, they made it a little faster, but it's not like the movie monsters that regrow lost parts in five minutes. Regrowing a whole arm takes weeks or months for Gadrins, the equivalent of skin wounds and broken bones take less time.
__________________
I want to go back to the moon.
I don't care which rocket you use, whichever one you pick, I'll like it, I swear.

"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek
Reply With Quote
  #127 (permalink)  
Old 07-April-2008, 05:42 AM
SkepticJ's Avatar
SkepticJ SkepticJ is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,107
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
Now, I'd call those both fantasy. "Kryptonian" is just another way of giving someone fantastic powers with no real explanation.... It's like the discussion of Steampunk: That's fantasy too.
And, "It works by sending tachyon particles into modevendium alloy charged with anti-protons," doesn't really tell you anything either. Star Trek's sci-fi, though, right?

How about Ringworld, with virtually unbreakable materials and luck as a biologically-based trait? Where do you draw the line?

I've got to disagree with the second. Some steampunk is fantasy-like, though I would still call it sci-fi, just very loose sci-fi. There's nothing in The Difference Engine that couldn't have really happened, had Charles Babbage not ticked off the people he needed to fund his machines.

There is a real Difference Engine, now, in The Science Museum, London, built according to the mechanical tolerances achievable at the time, and it works just fine.

I'm actually writing a novel that's partly set in a post-steampunk world--they've moved onto electromechanical technology. Nothing is impossible, and most things are very probable in the story.
__________________
If we don't play god, who will?-James Watson
I never think of the future, it comes soon enough.-Albert Einstein
The large print giveth and the small print taketh away.-Tom Waits
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a yo-yo.-Enoch Root, The Confusion
When I was a kid, if someone brandished a shrink gun he'd get a little bit of respect!-Myron Reducto, Harvey Birdman
Reply With Quote
  #128 (permalink)  
Old 07-April-2008, 07:57 AM
Paul Beardsley's Avatar
Paul Beardsley Paul Beardsley is online now
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Havant, England
Posts: 4,845
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
And, "It works by sending tachyon particles into modevendium alloy charged with anti-protons," doesn't really tell you anything either. Star Trek's sci-fi, though, right?
No, it doesn't tell you anything. It's technobabble, the mark of bad science fiction. The rest of the story might be fine, but there's no excuse for such nonsense.

If Geordie (or whoever) wants to talk about a new piece of technology, he would be better off simply telling us what it does (e.g. "It detects chlorine in swimming pools, Captain,") and then, if the story requires it, Picard can say, "Geordie, can your device be modified to detect fluorine in drinking water?"

Alternatively, simply naming something and letting us see what it does is a good approach. We don't know how phasers work, but we've seen what they do in earlier episodes, so when someone says, "I've got a phaser," we know what they are capable of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkepticJ
How about Ringworld, with virtually unbreakable materials and luck as a biologically-based trait? Where do you draw the line?
These are examples of speculation and extrapolation.

In the future we may or may not acquire unbreakable spaceship hulls. But it's worth writing about them because they enable us to tell new stories. Larry Niven's Neutron Star would not have worked as well if the spaceship had merely had a "fairly strong" hull.

If Niven's stories were all about spaceship fights ("Will my irresistible beam cut through the impenetrable hull?") then they would be no better than superhero stories. But they are not about that.

Is luck a biologically-based trait? Almost certainly not. But the question is an interesting one, and SF exists to ask questions - and it doesn't matter if the answer is no.

Steampunk - I consider those parallel world stories, ones where the divergence in history was technological, at the height of the steam age.
Reply With Quote
  #129 (permalink)  
Old 07-April-2008, 09:22 AM
Van Rijn's Avatar
Van Rijn Van Rijn is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
And, "It works by sending tachyon particles into modevendium alloy charged with anti-protons," doesn't really tell you anything either. Star Trek's sci-fi, though, right?
Sure, I'd call it skiffy. You removed it from the bit you quoted, but you saw what I said in that post about skiffy, right? "Skiffy" is what you see too often on TV and in the movies. Sometimes, there are good science fiction Star Trek stories, but not when they throw in handwavium to do whatever is needed to fix a stupid plot.

Quote:
How about Ringworld, with virtually unbreakable materials and luck as a biologically-based trait? Where do you draw the line?
I'd say Ringworld has a number of fantastic elements, but it does follow the known rules of physics except where exceptions are explicitly shown, and does show the consequences of the exceptions. I'd say it's science fiction, but it isn't as hard as some.

As for where I draw the line, any line is going to be subjective. However, I do think there needs to be some limits on what is called "science fiction," based on stories that can't be told without the science fiction elements, and can be distinguished from fantasy based on more than a few word choices.

Quote:
I've got to disagree with the second. Some steampunk is fantasy-like, though I would still call it sci-fi, just very loose sci-fi. There's nothing in The Difference Engine that couldn't have really happened, had Charles Babbage not ticked off the people he needed to fund his machines.
I haven't read that, but I can believe some might not not be what I'd call fantasy. It's just that all of the steampunk I've seen has rather huge fantasy elements: Things that can't be done within the realm of known physics (for instance, heavy flying ships), let alone with steam engines, vacuum tubes, and so forth.
__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Reply With Quote
  #130 (permalink)  
Old 07-April-2008, 02:07 PM
Jim's Avatar
Jim Jim is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clear Lake City, TX
Posts: 4,481
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
If a story just has the trappings of science fiction, but the story could be told without them, I wouldn't consider it science fiction. For instance, if instead of a horse, a guy uses a spaceship, and if instead of a six-gun he has a ray-gun, and if instead of going between towns in the "West" he goes between towns in different solar systems, it's still a Western.
Ah, like ST:TOS ("Wagon Train to the Stars") or Firefly (which didn't even use ray-guns). Gotcha.
__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov
Reply With Quote
  #131 (permalink)  
Old 07-April-2008, 04:22 PM
Jason Jason is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Centerville, UT
Posts: 1,213
Default

Star Trek was real sci-fi sometimes, and other times was formula. When they confronted moral questions directly, like "what are the implications of fighting a war entirely through computers, preserving your infrastructure but still taking casualties?" or "if you know someone you love is going to change the future to allow the Nazis to win WWII, should you allow her to die?" Those were real science-fiction episodes.
Most of Voyager, by contrast, was formula.
__________________
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
Reply With Quote
  #132 (permalink)  
Old 07-April-2008, 06:51 PM
Gillianren's Avatar
Gillianren Gillianren is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 16,733
Default

I think the issue is that few people are willing to put things in different genres at the same time. Now, Rotten Tomatoes limits me to ten categories (can you believe that?), but I've put things into all sorts of odd cross-categories. I can't do Western and Fantasy/Sci-Fi, because I haven't got room for a Western category (really), but, yeah, if I did, Firefly/Serenity would go in it. When I get around to Chicago, it'll probably be Musical-Mystery/Suspense. Dear Frankie is Drama-Animation/Family. (Yes, I know--animation and family should be two separate categories. I just don't have enough categories to work with.) And so forth. It's Nu-Shimmer, kids.
__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
Reply With Quote
  #133 (permalink)  
Old 07-April-2008, 07:11 PM
mike alexander's Avatar
mike alexander mike alexander is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: McMinnville, Oregon
Posts: 9,967
Default

I'd never heard of 'steampunk' until running across it here on BAUT, but my favorite steampunk novel is Harry Harrison's A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!
__________________
If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers.
Reply With Quote
  #134 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2008, 07:30 AM
Van Rijn's Avatar
Van Rijn Van Rijn is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
I think the issue is that few people are willing to put things in different genres at the same time.
I don't mind putting things in multiple genres, but if you can tell the same story by changing a few words, there isn't much point. By the way, my Western comparison was based on an example I saw years ago in (I think) Galaxy magazine. It showed one paragraph that was obviously from a Western and one paragraph where the words were changed slightly, but the story was the same. The point was that it was bad science fiction (if you were willing to call it that at all) because the SF elements were irrelevant to the story.
__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Reply With Quote
  #135 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2008, 07:39 AM
Van Rijn's Avatar
Van Rijn Van Rijn is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,138
Default

Found it! Galaxy ran this as an ad, showing something they wouldn't put in the magazine. One version:

Jets blasting, Bat Durston came screeching down through the atmosphere of Bbllzznaj, a tiny planet seven billion light years from Sol. He cut out his super-hyper-drive for the landing...and at that point, a tall, lean spaceman stepped out of the tail assembly, proton gun-blaster in a space-tanned hand.

"Get back from those controls, Bat Durston," the tall stranger lipped thinly. "You don't know it, but this is your last space trip."


The other version:

Hoofs drumming, Bat Durston came galloping down through the narrow pass at Eagle Gulch, a tiny gold colony 400 miles north of Tombstone. He spurred hard for a low overhang of rim-rock...and at that point a tall, lean wrangler stepped out from behind a high boulder, six-shooter in a sun-tanned hand.

"Rear back and dismount, Bat Durston," the tall stranger lipped thinly. "You don't know it, but this is your last saddle-jaunt through these here parts."


And from Wikipedia, which explains the issue a bit more:

Quote:
Galaxy ran an ad on its back cover, "You won't find it in Galaxy", which gave the beginnings of make-believe parallel Western and SF stories featuring a character named Bat Durston. From this ad stemmed the derisive term "Bat Durston" to refer to the subgenre. A Bat Durston is always a derogatory term, indicating that the entire story could be transplanted to the West without more than cosmetic changes. If the story uses Western motifs but contains a speculative element that can not be removed without redoing the plot, it may be a space Western but not a Bat Durston.
__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Reply With Quote
  #136 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2008, 12:20 PM
Disinfo Agent Disinfo Agent is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,036
Default

The trouble with such stylistic stringency is that if you decide to extirpate stories like that from science fiction you'll lose such material as E. E. Smith's Lensman series (which you could say is kind of a mix between a western and a spy story in space clothing).

Yet few authors contributed as much as Smith to make science fiction popular.

(I would say the same about George Lucas or Gene Roddenberry, by the way. Now, awarding a Hugo to Lord of the Rings -- that is ridiculous!)
__________________
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.
Reply With Quote
  #137 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2008, 01:43 PM
HenrikOlsen's Avatar
HenrikOlsen HenrikOlsen is online now
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denmark 55.6773° N 12.3610° E
Posts: 8,599
Send a message via MSN to HenrikOlsen Send a message via Yahoo to HenrikOlsen
Default

Those sounds like perfectly legitimate entries to the Bulwer-Lytton contest.
__________________
‘To those who regard “crime fiction” as some sacred icon which must follow a rigid formula, I will always be the man who writes 18-syllable haiku.’
Andrew Vachss, Autobiographical essay
Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.
Reply With Quote
  #138 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2008, 05:20 PM
mike alexander's Avatar
mike alexander mike alexander is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: McMinnville, Oregon
Posts: 9,967
Default

To me, the idea of substitution as a test of a science fiction story (the SF/Western substitution mentioned above) is pretty irrelevant if the story is a good one. Using the Galaxy Test I don't see how The Green Hills of Earth could qualify as SF. It's just (sic) a sea story, with spaceships and atomic piles substituted for tramp steamers and steam tubes, a prose extension of Kipling's McAndrew's Hymn.
__________________
If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers.
Reply With Quote
  #139 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2008, 05:27 PM
Jason Jason is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Centerville, UT
Posts: 1,213
Default

There are some real science fiction themes in Lensmen, like the evolution of a new form of human being - they're just hiding rather well behind all the pulp-style adventure.
__________________
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
Reply With Quote
  #140 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2008, 06:02 PM
Paul Beardsley's Avatar
Paul Beardsley Paul Beardsley is online now
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Havant, England
Posts: 4,845
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike alexander View Post
To me, the idea of substitution as a test of a science fiction story (the SF/Western substitution mentioned above) is pretty irrelevant if the story is a good one. Using the Galaxy Test I don't see how The Green Hills of Earth could qualify as SF. It's just (sic) a sea story, with spaceships and atomic piles substituted for tramp steamers and steam tubes, a prose extension of Kipling's McAndrew's Hymn.
You're right and you're wrong, Mike. IMHO, of course!

In terms of plot you could replace space with the sea in TGHOE. But in terms of story, you can't. The fact that space will be a hostile environment in the future in the same way that the sea was at the time of writing is part of the point of the story; likewise the idea that we will be longing for close-up views of our planet in the same way that we already long for the sight of a familiar coastline.
Reply With Quote
  #141 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2008, 11:57 PM
KaiYeves's Avatar
KaiYeves KaiYeves is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Currently on assignment on planet shown in avatar photo
Posts: 9,951
Default

Is it also believeable that the extraterrestrial in my story could have something like nanobots in their blood to repair broken bones and the like quickly?
__________________
I want to go back to the moon.
I don't care which rocket you use, whichever one you pick, I'll like it, I swear.

"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek
Reply With Quote
  #142 (permalink)  
Old 09-April-2008, 12:40 AM
Van Rijn's Avatar
Van Rijn Van Rijn is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiYeves View Post
Is it also believeable that the extraterrestrial in my story could have something like nanobots in their blood to repair broken bones and the like quickly?
How quickly, and what's the cost in energy and resources, and are there waste products (material and/or waste heat)?

I've seen quite a few stories that invoke nanobots but ignore conservation of mass and energy - so that, for example, somebody might grow twice their original size in five minutes, with no hint where the material or energy came from, or what happened to the inevitable waste heat. As far as I'm concerned, that's pure fantasy.

Now, if you have nanobots that give limited abilities with a significant cost, it might be different. Just remember there's a reason why people don't have quick-fix bones already.
__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Reply With Quote
  #143 (permalink)  
Old 09-April-2008, 12:43 AM
KaiYeves's Avatar
KaiYeves KaiYeves is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Currently on assignment on planet shown in avatar photo
Posts: 9,951
Default

In about 12 hours, but the 'bots can't be used after that for a few weeks.
__________________
I want to go back to the moon.
I don't care which rocket you use, whichever one you pick, I'll like it, I swear.

"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The spectetors looks the space related movies with a great interest alongwith family suntrack2 Small Media at Large 8 24-January-2007 08:09 AM
Neptune shouldn't be a planet by IAU... tlbs101 Astronomy 36 28-August-2006 05:12 PM
science movies suntrack2 Off-Topic Babbling 5 17-September-2005 06:12 PM
Free to choose? anu Conspiracy Theories 11 04-December-2002 11:59 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.0.0
©  2006 Bad Astronomy and Universe Today