Here's a thought.
Attiyah Zahdeh, is it possible the colour balance on your computer monitor is off?
Over on the ozone thread you seemed to deny that a couple of obviously blue images contained any blue; now you seem to be doing the same here.
I remember some time ago a user posted a bug report on the Celestia forum, saying that (blue) orbits weren't plotted. This was accompanied by a screenshot showing very evident blue orbits. Turned out the problem was due to an elderly monitor with rather weary blue phosphors.

Grant Hutchison

Some of the members bahaved in a manner such that their responses tried to give counterarguments.

Suppose that it is right that ancient Scandanavians invented this term (midnight sun), then why did they relate the sun with midnight if there experience had nothing to do with seeing the sun during a real night, or with seeing " a sunny night"?

Apparently, you want to get sure that Arabic is my first language. True!
Arabs had no experience with such a phenomenon. Only we translate the term into "Shams Muntasf Al-Lail". Were Attiyah an ancient Scandanavian, he should call it "night-darkness Sun" (in Arabic : Shams Zalam Al-lail).

The term "midnight" just means a certain time of a 24 hour day. It's got nothing to do with the sky being dark. the term "midnight sun" refers to a situation where the sun is still visible at midnight. Hence the term "midnight sun." Once again, nothing to do with the sky being black/dark whatever. Why would you think it did?

As for who invented the term and when, I've no idea. I can only speak about how we understand it today. But I don't think the sky was any different was ancient Scandinavians...

Hello Gilli,
What do you conclude if the coinage of the "midnight Sun" predates the polar exploration?

So, maybe the Arab translation of "midnight sun" is a little inaccurate, because the old astronomers/scientists had not experienced the phenomenon in person, but only from documents that they received from the north.

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“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
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Hello Tusenfem,
Literally saying,

Shams means: "Sun"

Muntasaf means: "mid".

Lail means: "night"
( Al- is the Arabic for "the".
Do you think that the English translation for the original term was accurate?

The only thing that matters is what the real thing looks like! And it has been demonstrated to you that the sky isn't black. The term "midnight sun" is very accurate since all it says is "the sun at midnight". Why would you think the arabic version was more accurate if, as you said yourself, you don't see the whole "phenomena" in the first place!

Blatantly repeating myself:

I never got an answer. Attiyah, please read carefully. You can claim the sky is dark as night and the sun is still visible, but can you offer any proof? A witness who wrote about it isn't good enough. Pictures you offer show blue sky with a sun overexposing the image to make everything else darker.

DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE?

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Hello V-Ger,
I still insist on being sure that the sky of the true midnight Sun often appears as dark as any normal night.

Please read this once more


summer solstice midnight sun summer solstice

Here in Anchorage Alaska, it just barely gets dark as the sun dips below the horizon in the middle of the night during the summer. But we wanted to see the real midnight sun. So the day before solstice this year, we packed up our van and drove about 500 miles to a spot where, thanks to its higher latitude and altitude, you can see the real thing. Eagle Summit reaches the highest elevation on the Steese Highway, a mostly gravel road northeast of Fairbanks. In that magic place, on June 21st, we saw the sun at midnight as it "touched" the horizon but did not set in the southern sky. To the north there was a nearly full moon, both orbs shining brightly in the dusky midnight sky.

http://www.turtlepuddle.org/bio/summer/solstice.html
============
Have you ever read the coming statement about the midnight Sun at Fairbanks?

" 'Midnight' sun really means that the sun is up at midnight, but it reaches its lowest point after 1:30 am. Perhaps the "All-Night Sun" is better."

Attiyah,

Folks are frustrated with your willful refusal to accept evidence contrary to your interpretation of a poetic reference.

Why, when faced with contrary observations, proof and explanations, do you persist in antagonistic quibbling?

I get the feeling you're trying to find support to prove a poetic cosmology like a flat earth or a sky dome.

Your arguments sound like you're on a one-man mission to get the modern-day 'Coppernicks' to recant their heretical beliefs and thus 'prove' a religious cosmology for you.

Care to comment?

I would be very interested in hearing how Attyah explains one dark night with sun up at arctic circle on summer solstice considering there hasn't been any dark nights for many weeks before that date, and there won't be one for many weeks after...

Insist all you want, it doesn't change the facts. At the Arctic Circle or above, on the Summer Solstice, the Sun is visible at local midnight and it is NOT as dark as any normal night.

We don't need to keep reading the same paragraph you have posted over and over again. It's a poetic description of an interesting event but, as others have posted, it doesn't even get the orientation of the sky correct.

Why is this significant? The Sun is low on the horizon and the sky would look very much like it does at sunrise or sunset.

You're quibbling over semantics and getting far too hung up on taking the phrase "midnight sun" too literally. Do you have an actual point to make? If you do then please state it succinctly. It's getting tiresome going over the same material over and over. Posters here have been very patient and have explained the concept of "midnight sun" so that anyone should be able to understand it.

If our explanations aren't good enough, then perhaps it's time to go to a library and educate yourself. You're not going to make much progress by trying to extract scientific understanding from poetry that is factually incorrect.

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Another thought.
Attiyah Zahdeh, does muntasf al-lail necessarily imply darkness in Arabic? I'm wondering if perhaps Arabic has a completely different expression for the time we'd symbolize by "00:00" on the twenty-four hour clock.
If so, you need to know that English dictionaries typically contain several definitions of "midnight", one of which relates purely to the time 00:00, and another of which relates to the middle of a period of darkness. We might also speak of the time 00:00 as "twelve at night" or "twelve midnight" to distinguish it from twelve noon. But again there's no requirement in that phrase that it be dark: it's just the way we say things.
So, as others have already said, the phrase "midnight sun", means a sun that is visible at 00:00, not a sun that is visible during a period of darkness.

Grant Hutchison

PS: I once got into a similar state of confusion in France, when I thought I knew the French word for "pothole". I mentioned to my host in the evening that my car had got briefly stuck in a pothole on the (truly horrible) mountain road to his village. This explanation for my late arrival was greeted with horror and bafflement.
Turns out I'd complained about the sort of pothole that cavers explore, which the French would call a marmite de géant ("giant's cauldron"), rather than a deep patch of subsidence on a metalled road, which the French call a nid de poule ("hen's nest").

Attiyah its easy.

Go to the Arctic and see for yourself. It's not like it's some kind of abstract thing. If you can't go yourself then you are going to have to take the evidence provided by those who have been and seen it and the scientific theory and reasoning provided. Simply repeating the same claim over and over is just wilful ignorance.

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Muntasaf al-lail necessarily implies darkness.

Grant Hutchison, you say:
"So, as others have already said, the phrase "midnight sun", means a sun that is visible at 00:00, not a sun that is visible during a period of darkness".

Accordingly, why the sun that is visible at at 00:00 could not be visible during a period of darkness?

Why do you refuse to accept that, at the Arctic Circle on 21st of June, the time 00:00 (twelve at night" or "twelve midnight") is a period of darkness?

Have you ever been on the Eagle Summit, Fairbanks at or around 00:00 on 21st of June?

Because it isn't.

Are you trying to prove a theory similar to that posted below?

"Just as the Jinn is of different type that we cannot see nor collide with but we can detect their gravity, there are six other Heavens that we cannot see nor collide with either but we can detect their gravity, superimposed above the visible one:

[Quran 41.12] So [Allah] decreed them as seven heavens (one above the other) in two days and revealed to each heaven its orders. And We [Allah] adorned the lowest heaven with lights, and protection. Such is the decree of the Exalted; the Knowledgeable.

According to the Quran, only the lowest Heaven has visible light. This means that this Dark Matter exists in the six Heavens superimposed above the lowest one. Also according to the Quran, each of these remaining six Heavens is of a different type and each has its own planets like Earth:

[Quran 65.12] Allah is the one who created seven Heavens and from Earth like them (of corresponding type); [Allah’s] command descends among them so that you may know that Allah is capable of anything and that Allah knows everything.

In Islam Earth is not a unique planet. Other planets like Earth do exist throughout the other six Heavens. It is just that we cannot see them nor collide with them but we can detect their gravity."
http://www.speed-light.info/

Or are you reading from this? The Sun at Midnight: The Revealed Mysteries of the Ahlul Bayt Sufis http://birthtime.info/spiritual6-b/f...sin=0967945801

Ah, that's interesting. Thank you.

Because I have been 25km from the Arctic Circle on 21st of June, at 00:00, and it wasn't dark, as I've already described. I could see to the Arctic Circle and beyond from where I was standing, and all I could see was sunlit sea.

No, but I've been closer to the Arctic Circle than Eagle Summit, at or around 00:00 on 21st of June, with a clear view northwards to a sea horizon. I had a better view than the person who wrote the report you keep quoting. You're asking me to believe your interpretation of a rather fuzzy passage written by someone who can't tell north from south, instead of believing what I saw. Why would I do that?

Grant Hutchison

because obviously its dark at midnight!

Just likewhen its winter in the UK it can't be the middle of summer in Australia because its December!

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Hello Dyerwolf,

I want to tell you that AZ is interested in the holy Quran, but the midnight Sun is not mentioned in any verse.

Okay, but the question is: Do you have a pre-defined cosmology that you are trying to prove regardless of whether or not its precepts are incompatible with observation or experience?

.

.

C-Swoop:

Exactly!

I used to live two or three kilometers south of the Arctic Circle (is that close enough?) and trust me when I say this: nights, even midnights, are not dark during those midsummer weeks before and after the Summer Solstice. June 21st is actually the brightest night during the whole summer. I never saw the midnight sun itself, because it always dipped behind this big hill, but in spite of this the nights were never dark. The term white night described on this wikipedia page is suiting.

Because I've observed that three kilometers south of the Arctic Circle at that time there is no period of darkness. Why would it be darker three kilometers north of my location of observation, when it should get brighter the more north you go?

For the fourth time, don't call me that. You may call me Gillian. You may call me Gillianren. But don't call me Gilli or Gil or any variant thereof. I have asked you this repeatedly, and I'm really starting to lose patience on the subject.

That it does not refer to an event exclusive to the North Pole, since the first expeditions that actually reached the North Pole have done so only within the last hundred years, give or take, and the expression is centuries old at least. This is logic. However, since so is everything else we've been telling you, I really don't expect you to acknowledge that, either.

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"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Here is a date of origin I found for the term. No clue how valid it may be.

midnight sun 
the sun visible at midnight in mid-summer in arctic and antarctic regions.
[Origin: 1855–60]


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006

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It matches the OED's earliest quotation containing the phrase, which is dated 1857, and which might be of interest here.
Grant Hutchison

Ok, take it from a Scandinavian then (although perhaps not ancient). We call it midnattssol, literally "midnight sun". See, midday is the time of day where the Sun is highest in the sky, thus midnight is when the sun is lowest, be it under or above the horizon. In this context, midnight is a time, not a condition.

Oh, and yes, I have seen the midnight sun, roughly at the arctic circle a few times, and no, the sky is not dark.

AZ,

I took two (digital) photos of the near sunset here in Publius Land. The first is showing the sun and the washout effect. The second is the same view but with my left hand blocking out Mr. Sun. You can see the huge difference in how the ambient brightness looks.

-Richard

Attached Images

	SunSetRes.jpg (46.4 KB, 52 views)
	HandBlock.jpg (55.0 KB, 44 views)

Do not lose patience, Gillianren.
Sorry.

Please google this title "reminder of Fairbanks area day light hours" and read "Finding the Midnight Sun".

http://www.geocities.com/abaccola/midnightsun.html

What do you conclude from this article and the shown photographs, Gillian?

Attiyah Zahdeh, you started this thread like this:
In denial of the many personal experiences and observations reported to you, you are now posting the same URL over and over again.
Can you see how very strange that seems to the rest of us?

Grant Hutchison

AZ,

Did you not scroll down and look the other photos taken after they tooks the shots of the sun? It's freakin' *broad daylight*, as is evident in those photos where the couple doesn't have their backs to the sun! Right there in the set of photos you are using to try to prove your notion.

Did you see the two photos I took of the sunset here tonight, and how different it looks with the sun vs with my hand blocking the sun? It was broad daylight, just getting where I normally wouldn't wear sunglasses.

You've got, what three or more people in this thread who have seen this and you don't believe them. Why?

-Richard