Have you any information about the midnight Sun? - Page 7

captain swoop · #**181** (**permalink**) 12-September-2006, 11:22 AM

[QUOTE=AGN Fuel;823750

My personal experience is not at so great a latitude as many others who have posted here, but I can confirm (having done it) that in mid-June in the Shetland Islands (north of Scotland, but well south of the Arctic Circle), it is still easily light enough at 11:00pm to go for a walk without any form of artificial lighting.
[/QUOTE]

there was a piece on the BBC news earlier in the year from Shetland, they have a 'ceremonial' midnight cricket match on the solstice at midnight.

captain swoop · #**182** (**permalink**) 12-September-2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attiyah Zahdeh

Some Necessary Clarifying Notices:

(1) It is certain that some of the ancient natives of the polar region invented the term "midnight sun". Let us consider that they were Scandinavians. This means that the term "midnight sun" has an original meaning. I consider that the original meaning of the "midnight sun" was a sunny midnight or even a sunny night. In other words, it meant that they had witnessed the sun shining during the real darkness of the night.. Can others show that its original meaning was something else?.
(2) Due to the fact that the usage of the term "midnight sun" predates the polar exploration, the meaning of the "midnight" was the middle of the night or very late in the night. Therefore, as to the ancient Scandinavians, the word "night" meant darkness. As well as, "midnight' never meant to them the time when the clock said 00:00.
(3) It seems that the original concept of the "midnight sun" is now expanded and changed. Its original meaning is no longer in the common usage. Instead, it now means the polar prolonged days wherein the sun does not set for 24 hours or more.
(4) As a natural phenomenon, and in its original meaning, the midnight sun is probable to occur at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. In other terms, I consider that it does not mean that the Sun is to be seen everywhere at the Arctic Circle or closely near it on every Summer Solstice. Instead, I consider that it is probable to see a sunny night at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. This implies that, according to its original meaning, the midnight sun might not be seen for long years.
(5) My idea is that the probability of seeing the "original" midnight sun increases during the solar minima. Therefore, I expect that the term "midnight sun" was originally invented during one of the distinguishable, historical solar minima such as the Maunder Minimum, or Forbish Minimum, to express witnessing a real sunny midnight or even a sunny night.
(6) I consider that it is probable to witness a sunny dark sky during a solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum even in polar lands higher than the Arctic Circle.
(7) I see that the historical astronomical records even from low latitudes are probable to have accounts of what I can describe as "midday sunny night sky".

What you consider probable able isn't the point. What actualy happens directly contradicts what you think should happen.

That you are the only person who thinks this and it is directly contradicted by both eye witness accounts, photographs and mainstream scientific theory should tell you something.

If you were to travel north and stand directly on the Arctic Circle yourself at the time of the solstice and directly observe that it is a normal sunlit sky would you doubt your own eyes in favour of your theory?

Maksutov · #**183** (**permalink**) 12-September-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain swoop

What you consider porbable isn't the point. What actualy happens directly contradicts what you think should happen.

That you are the only person who thinks this and it is directly contradicted by both eye witness accounts, photographs and mainstream scientific theory should tell you something.

If you were to travel north and stand directly on the Arctic Circle yourself at the time of the solstice and directly observe that it is a normal sunlit sky would you doubt your own eyes in gavour of your theory?

Sounds familiar.

Note: Ah good, redundant post deleted.

Nereid · #**184** (**permalink**) 12-September-2006, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gillianren

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nereid

{94} What do you conclude if the coinage of the "midnight Sun" predates the polar exploration? Not Answered? (but out of BAUT scope)
= = = = = = = = = = =

{117} What do you conclude from this article and the shown photographs, Gillian? Not Answered? (but out of BAUT scope).

I thought I answered both of these, but for the record:

If, as seems highly evident, the coinage of the term "midnight sun" predates polar exploration, it means that it is a phenomenon that is not exclusive to the Poles themselves.

I conclude that AZ has a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept "midnight sun" that is at odds with his/her own sources.

Apologies.

The answers are to be found in post #112 and post #140.

captain swoop · #**185** (**permalink**) 12-September-2006, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maksutov

Sounds familiar.

Note: Ah good, redundant post deleted.

yes, my internet connection had some kind of 'burp' and i ended up posting ity 3 times!

Maksutov · #**186** (**permalink**) 12-September-2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain swoop

yes, my internet connection had some kind of 'burp' and i ended up posting ity 3 times!

Been there, done that, where's the darn t-shirt?

BTW, I was going to link this to the Wikipedia article on wet t-shirts, but the BAUT BB, being one of the last bastions of puritanism, would probably object.

antoniseb · #**187** (**permalink**) 12-September-2006, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain swoop

yes, my internet connection had some kind of 'burp' and i ended up posting it 3 times!

I try not to post on BAUT much between 1000UT and 1040UT. The forum server goes through some kind of maintenance during that time.

Essan · #**188** (**permalink**) 12-September-2006, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attiyah Zahdeh

Some Necessary Clarifying Notices:

(1) It is certain that some of the ancient natives of the polar region invented the term "midnight sun". Let us consider that they were Scandinavians. This means that the term "midnight sun" has an original meaning. I consider that the original meaning of the "midnight sun" was a sunny midnight or even a sunny night. In other words, it meant that they had witnessed the sun shining during the real darkness of the night.. Can others show that its original meaning was something else?.

It is not certain at all. Quite the opposite. This is unfounded conjecture. I could argue with equal authority that the term was originally used by the Ancient Sumerians and originally meant a rather dull, cloudy day (ie the sun is in the sky but it's a bit dark)

Quote:

(2) Due to the fact that the usage of the term "midnight sun" predates the polar exploration, the meaning of the "midnight" was the middle of the night or very late in the night. Therefore, as to the ancient Scandinavians, the word "night" meant darkness. As well as, "midnight' never meant to them the time when the clock said 00:00.

Again, unfounded conjecture. See above.

Quote:

(3) It seems that the original concept of the "midnight sun" is now expanded and changed. Its original meaning is no longer in the common usage. Instead, it now means the polar prolonged days wherein the sun does not set for 24 hours or more.

It would appear that the term means today the same as it always has - that the sun is visible on or above the horizon at midnight (00.00z)

Quote:

(4) As a natural phenomenon, and in its original meaning, the midnight sun is probable to occur at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. In other terms, I consider that it does not mean that the Sun is to be seen everywhere at the Arctic Circle or closely near it on every Summer Solstice. Instead, I consider that it is probable to see a sunny night at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. This implies that, according to its original meaning, the midnight sun might not be seen for long years.

Subject to cloud, the midnight sun is visible at all points within the arctic circle on the solstice. North of the arctic circle it is visible before and after the solstice - up to the N Pole itself where it is visible from spring to autumn equinox.

Quote:

(5) My idea is that the probability of seeing the "original" midnight sun increases during the solar minima. Therefore, I expect that the term "midnight sun" was originally invented during one of the distinguishable, historical solar minima such as the Maunder Minimum, or Forbish Minimum, to express witnessing a real sunny midnight or even a sunny night.

I fail to see how the number of sunspots has anything to do with this? The phenomena of a midnight sun is determined entirely by the axial tilt of the Earth.

Quote:

(6) I consider that it is probable to witness a sunny dark sky during a solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum even in polar lands higher than the Arctic Circle.

See above

Quote:

(7) I see that the historical astronomical records even from low latitudes are probable to have accounts of what I can describe as "midday sunny night sky".

What records?

PS I do appreciate I'm wasting my time as clearly no amount of arguing or evidence will convince AZ that he could possibly be wrong. But it's fuin trying

Van Rijn · #**189** (**permalink**) 12-September-2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain swoop

there was a piece on the BBC news earlier in the year from Shetland, they have a 'ceremonial' midnight cricket match on the solstice at midnight.

I saw this from a quick google, a 90 hour midnight sun golfing tournament. Here's the gallery:

http://www.merilappi.com/golf/eng_kuvagalleria.htm

and a page on it:

http://www.merilappi.com/golf/eng_turnausinfo.htm

Nereid · #**190** (**permalink**) 12-September-2006, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attiyah Zahdeh

Hello Nereid,
I hope that it will be possible not to close this thread until 16 of September.
(1) I wait the answers from both Mary Hopson (maryhopson@gci.net) and Bill Hutchison (bill@eaglestation.com). Van Rijn and Publius suggested to ask them directly.

Hello...,
I have a thread at :
Have you any information about the midnight Sun?
( Have you any information about the midnight Sun?)
If possible, please read it and review the discussions especially the posts: 165-167.
You will conclude that your replies are greatly necessary. Please send me your answers as soon as possible.
What did you mean by a "real midnight Sun"? Did it mean seeing the Sun in a real night?
What did "a dusky sky" mean to you if not a sky that is as dark as at a normal night or at least as at an astronomical dusk?
Did you mean by "a dusky sky" that the sky was as dark as at any normal night?
Do you agree that the term "midnight Sun" was originally invented by the ancient Scandinavians to mean that it happened to them that they saw a sunny midnight or the Sun whilst was shining in a dark sky?
Best Regards and Great Thanks
Attiyah

(2) There is a uggested poll by Fortis.
(3) As your comprehensive review shows, there are some questions not answerd yet.

However, as far as I can see, all questions that are within the scope of BAUT have been answered.

While an etymological, or historical linguistic, analysis - especially into the proto-Uralic, proto-Altaic, and proto-Eskimo-Aleut languages (or families) - might be interesting, with regard to how the phenomenon of the 'midnight sun' was encoded - it is way beyond the scope of this discussion forum (and, no doubt, beyond that of any BAUT member - I'm sure even Joseph Greenberg's stout heart would have quailed at the mere thought of such an analysis).

Nereid · #**191** (**permalink**) 12-September-2006, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attiyah Zahdeh

Some Necessary Clarifying Notices:

(1) It is certain that some of the ancient natives of the polar region invented the term "midnight sun". Let us consider that they were Scandinavians. This means that the term "midnight sun" has an original meaning. I consider that the original meaning of the "midnight sun" was a sunny midnight or even a sunny night. In other words, it meant that they had witnessed the sun shining during the real darkness of the night.. Can others show that its original meaning was something else?

We are way, way beyond the scope of BAUT here, but I don't doubt that should any linguist read this, they'd be yelling in frustration (or shaking their heads at the multiple, naive mistakes) - almost any decent textbook on linguistics will show you why this sort of reasoning is flawed.

Quote:

(2) Due to the fact that the usage of the term "midnight sun" predates the polar exploration, the meaning of the "midnight" was the middle of the night or very late in the night. Therefore, as to the ancient Scandinavians, the word "night" meant darkness. As well as, "midnight' never meant to them the time when the clock said 00:00.

Same as (1)

Quote:

(3) It seems that the original concept of the "midnight sun" is now expanded and changed. Its original meaning is no longer in the common usage. Instead, it now means the polar prolonged days wherein the sun does not set for 24 hours or more.

A good etymology, of "midnight sun", would certainly help, wrt "expanded and changed".

The "original meaning" (of "midnight sun") is a myth*.

Quote:

(4) As a natural phenomenon, and in its original meaning, the midnight sun is probable to occur at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. In other terms, I consider that it does not mean that the Sun is to be seen everywhere at the Arctic Circle or closely near it on every Summer Solstice. Instead, I consider that it is probable to see a sunny night at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. This implies that, according to its original meaning, the midnight sun might not be seen for long years.

And certain Greek philosophers were supposed to have argued for days, in their nice comfy armchairs, about the number of teeth a horse has. I'm sure they could have argued for centuries, if the topic had been the number of teeth a horse once had.

Meanwhile, in the world of science - and BAUT is an internet discussion forum that is avowed scientific in its approach - some folk have actually 'been there, done that' (seen the midnight sun). You too can (in principle).

Or you can ask the (so the story goes) Arab trader who went outside the room, opened a horse's mouth, and counted the teeth - ask someone to go on your behalf, and report back.

Quote:

(5) My idea is that the probability of seeing the "original" midnight sun increases during the solar minima. Therefore, I expect that the term "midnight sun" was originally invented during one of the distinguishable, historical solar minima such as the Maunder Minimum, or Forbish Minimum, to express witnessing a real sunny midnight or even a sunny night.

Well, there have been several solar minima during the lives of many of the residents of Rovaniemi (and, no doubt, many other towns near the Arctic Circle) - why not make some phone calls, and ask them?

Quote:

(6) I consider that it is probable to witness a sunny dark sky during a solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum even in polar lands higher than the Arctic Circle.
(7) I see that the historical astronomical records even from low latitudes are probable to have accounts of what I can describe as "midday sunny night sky".

See above.

*Unless it's a Swadesh word - "Sun is on the Swadesh list, but "midnight" is not.

Kristophe · #**192** (**permalink**) 13-September-2006, 12:15 AM

I just read through this entire thread, after noticing the related poll. From my view, publius hit the nail right on the head. This looks like a case a non-native English speaker misinterpreting the nuances of the English language, accidentally or otherwise, to lend support to a pet hypothesis. Another example of this happening (with French) was given. By the standards set forth by AZ, we should also be on the lookout for titanic witches somewhere in the rocky French interior.

Kristophe · #**193** (**permalink**) 13-September-2006, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attiyah Zahdeh

Some Necessary Clarifying Notices:

(1) It is certain that some of the ancient natives of the polar region invented the term "midnight sun". Let us consider that they were Scandinavians. This means that the term "midnight sun" has an original meaning. I consider that the original meaning of the "midnight sun" was a sunny midnight or even a sunny night. In other words, it meant that they had witnessed the sun shining during the real darkness of the night.. Can others show that its original meaning was something else?.

No more than you can show it to be as you say above. Your interpretation is not authorative.

Quote:

(2) Due to the fact that the usage of the term "midnight sun" predates the polar exploration, the meaning of the "midnight" was the middle of the night or very late in the night. Therefore, as to the ancient Scandinavians, the word "night" meant darkness. As well as, "midnight' never meant to them the time when the clock said 00:00.

This, again, is your own assertion, and it is one for which you have supplied no evidnce. For your own purposes, do you wish to tell us that "sun" originally meant a floating campfire, and so the phrase actually describes a burning balloon after sunset?

Quote:

(3) It seems that the original concept of the "midnight sun" is now expanded and changed. Its original meaning is no longer in the common usage. Instead, it now means the polar prolonged days wherein the sun does not set for 24 hours or more.

It seems far more likely that your concept of the original meaning of the phrase never existed. I'm sure most people at this board believe this, and will continue to do so until you can show otherwise.

Quote:

(4) As a natural phenomenon, and in its original meaning, the midnight sun is probable to occur at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. In other terms, I consider that it does not mean that the Sun is to be seen everywhere at the Arctic Circle or closely near it on every Summer Solstice. Instead, I consider that it is probable to see a sunny night at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. This implies that, according to its original meaning, the midnight sun might not be seen for long years.
(5) My idea is that the probability of seeing the "original" midnight sun increases during the solar minima. Therefore, I expect that the term "midnight sun" was originally invented during one of the distinguishable, historical solar minima such as the Maunder Minimum, or Forbish Minimum, to express witnessing a real sunny midnight or even a sunny night.
(6) I consider that it is probable to witness a sunny dark sky during a solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum even in polar lands higher than the Arctic Circle.
(7) I see that the historical astronomical records even from low latitudes are probable to have accounts of what I can describe as "midday sunny night sky".

"I guess no one here has seen what I'm talking about. I assume that means that it's very rare, therefore I'm right."

captain swoop · #**194** (**permalink**) 13-September-2006, 12:32 AM

Did I say Cricket?? lol I meant to put Golf but I was listening to the radio talking about the upcoming tour of India!!

Van Rijn · #**195** (**permalink**) 13-September-2006, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attiyah Zahdeh

(3) It seems that the original concept of the "midnight sun" is now expanded and changed.

Only to you. To the rest of us, here, it's obvious that the concept has remained the same, as the physics and the event have not changed.

Quote:

Its original meaning is no longer in the common usage. Instead, it now means the polar prolonged days wherein the sun does not set for 24 hours or more.

The meaning you ascribed to the term never existed. In fact, you're the first person I've ever heard suggest that meaning. I'm quite sure that the first people who coined the term "midnight sun" understood just as well as I do what is meant by the term.

Quote:

(4) As a natural phenomenon, and in its original meaning, the midnight sun is probable to occur at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. In other terms, I consider that it does not mean that the Sun is to be seen everywhere at the Arctic Circle or closely near it on every Summer Solstice. Instead, I consider that it is probable to see a sunny night at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. This implies that, according to its original meaning, the midnight sun might not be seen for long years.

Wait. Are you suggesting that not only would the sky be black with the sun in the sky, but that something will prevent the sun from being in the sky?

If so, then you apparently do have some fundamental misunderstandings of the geometry of the earth in relation to the sun. At the poles, such as at the south pole station, the sun rises and stays in the sky for six months straight, followed by six months of darkness.

Nereid · #**196** (**permalink**) 13-September-2006, 02:38 AM

Thanks everyone for the inputs, corrections, clarifications, etc.

If any BAUT member has anything new, of relevance to this thread, or any correction or clarification of significance, please PM me (or any other mod), and the thread will be re-opened.

Thread closed (per my post of 11 September).

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