Chatroom
 

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > Science and Space > Space/Astronomy Questions and Answers
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

   

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 24-June-2007, 11:37 AM
max8166's Avatar
max8166 max8166 is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Southampton, England
Posts: 250
Default How fast are we going?

Hey, I'm sat in my study, I'm at rest relative to the earth. But the earth is spinning and I'm on the surface, so I must be going at some speed (unless I'm at a North or South Pole).
Also the earth is going around the Sun, One circuit every year and so I must be going some speed relative to the Solar System. And the Solar System is on the spiral arm arm of the Milky Way Galaxy which rotates around it's own center.

And I suppose the Galaxy is not stationary in the Universe as we know that the other galaxies are moving away from us (in increasing orders of magnitude)

So, is there a stopped place? Can we measure the Cosmic Background radiation and say we are moving away from a point in space where things are truly stationary? If so where is that place?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 24-June-2007, 11:41 AM
Ken G's Avatar
Ken G Ken G is online now
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 12,738
Default

All we can ever talk about are relative speeds, there is simply no meaningful concept of absolute speed that science has ever developed, so far. This is the central tenet of relativity, an extremely successful theory.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 24-June-2007, 01:10 PM
EvilEye's Avatar
EvilEye EvilEye is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mount Dora, FL
Posts: 922
Send a message via AIM to EvilEye Send a message via Yahoo to EvilEye
Default

Or... instead of how fast...ask, "How slow am I going?"

If light-speed is the fastest anything can move, measure yourself against it.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 24-June-2007, 01:53 PM
Jens's Avatar
Jens Jens is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 3,196
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by max8166 View Post
So, is there a stopped place? Can we measure the Cosmic Background radiation and say we are moving away from a point in space where things are truly stationary? If so where is that place?
I think the "cosmological principle" states that the cosmic background radiation should be the same from wherever you measure it. So things should be truly stationary from everywhere. So that place is everywhere. Unless there is an ether, that principle should hold. Now, the spinning issue presents some problems there, as per Mach's Principle.
__________________
As above, so below
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 24-June-2007, 02:06 PM
antoniseb's Avatar
antoniseb antoniseb is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin MA
Posts: 16,015
Default

You could reference 'The Galaxy Song' from Monty Python's "The Meaning of Liff" for some quick answers. But basically,

You are moving on the Earth at roughly 40,000 km/day times the cosine of your latitude, so roughly 0.3 km/sec

You are moving around the Sun at about 30 km/sec

The Sun and you and me, and all the stars that you can see are moving at a million miles a day (18 km/sec) around the center of the Milky Way.

How do all these vectors add up? It depends on the time of day and year, but as you can see the speed of the Earth around the Sun is the fastest of the three.

It is possible to compute our velocity relative to the CMBR, but I don't know this speed off the top of my head.
__________________
Forming opinions as we speak
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 24-June-2007, 03:39 PM
Tucson_Tim Tucson_Tim is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,373
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilEye View Post
Or... instead of how fast...ask, "How slow am I going?"

If light-speed is the fastest anything can move, measure yourself against it.
This doesn't work. Light will always be measured as c.

An example of Relativity: A large spaceship takes off from Earth and obtains a velocity of 0.9c relative to Earth. A second smaller spaceship (that was stored on board) then takes off from the first spaceship and obtains a velocity of 0.9c relative to the first spaceship and in the same direction. Then an even smaller third spacship that was stored on board the second spaceship takes off and obtains a velocity of 0.9c relative to the second spaceship and in the same direction. The third spaceship would still measure a passing light beam as c. Also, the third spaceship will still be measured as traveling less than c relative to the Earth. Actually, the measured speed of the third spaceship, realtive to the Earth, is easily calculated using the Lorentz Transformations equations.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 24-June-2007, 05:04 PM
Soup Fan's Avatar
Soup Fan Soup Fan is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Palatine, IL
Posts: 19
Send a message via AIM to Soup Fan
Default

You could probably measure your velocity against my brother, who never moves off of the couch.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Brak View Post
You should have a segment on the TV show, "I Can't Believe it's Not Fatal."
Blog Internetz
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 24-June-2007, 08:37 PM
eburacum45's Avatar
eburacum45 eburacum45 is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: old york
Posts: 5,735
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by max8166 View Post
Can we measure the Cosmic Background radiation and say we are moving away from a point in space where things are truly stationary?
We are moving with respect to the Cosmic Background Radiation;
at about 600 kilometers per second.
From here
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030209.html
Quote:
The map indicates that the Local Group moves at about 600 kilometers per second relative to this primordial radiation. This high speed was initially unexpected and its magnitude is still unexplained. Why are we moving so fast? What is out there?
Off the top of my head I seem to recall we are travelling towards the constellation Centaurus- but that might be my poor memory.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 25-June-2007, 02:32 AM
Jens's Avatar
Jens Jens is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 3,196
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eburacum45 View Post
We are moving with respect to the Cosmic Background Radiation;
at about 600 kilometers per second.
I always thought that the universe was supposed to look the same from all places, or that all places should appear to be the "center" of the universe. Doesn't that contradict this if we appear to be moving vis-a-vis the CBR? Though it's only a small part of the speed of light, so maybe it's not that significant?
__________________
As above, so below
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 25-June-2007, 11:11 PM
Peter Wilson's Avatar
Peter Wilson Peter Wilson is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,816
Default Aside from small local variation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens View Post
I always thought that the universe was supposed to look the same from all places...
It does...relatively speaking
__________________
PW -- Plant Whisperer
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 26-June-2007, 11:45 AM
mfumbesi's Avatar
mfumbesi mfumbesi is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pretoria, Afric'de Sud
Posts: 1,066
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniseb View Post
Y

The Sun and you and me, and all the stars that you can see are moving at a million miles a day (18 km/sec) around the center of the Milky Way.
Wiki:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_%28astronomy%29, has that as 217 km/sec and I used 250million years for a "Galactic year" and came out with 196 km/sec.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 26-June-2007, 03:56 PM
antoniseb's Avatar
antoniseb antoniseb is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin MA
Posts: 16,015
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfumbesi View Post
Wiki:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_%28astronomy%29, has that as 217 km/sec and I used 250million years for a "Galactic year" and came out with 196 km/sec.
The lyric would still scan if we said 'twelve million miles a day'. Maybe I misheard it. In any case *this* motion (not Earth orbital motion) dominates the velocity relative to the center of the galaxy. Thanks for the correction.

Sadly, the next line of the song is less fixable. 'forty-thousand miles an hour' has to get changed to 'half-a million miles an hour'.
__________________
Forming opinions as we speak
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 26-June-2007, 04:05 PM
Tucson_Tim Tucson_Tim is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,373
Default

A little OT but not too much . . .

During news briefings about the status of interplanetary probes, it irritates me when they say the probe is going x mph, without stating the relativity point. x mph relative to the planet it's passing? x mph relative to Earth? x mph relative to the Sun?
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 26-June-2007, 04:27 PM
loglo's Avatar
loglo loglo is online now
Established Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sydney,AU
Posts: 878
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tucson_Tim View Post
A little OT but not too much . . .

During news briefings about the status of interplanetary probes, it irritates me when they say the probe is going x mph, without stating the relativity point. x mph relative to the planet it's passing? x mph relative to Earth? x mph relative to the Sun?
Find the fastest speed it will be travelling relative to any object and that will be the speed quoted. Journalists love picking the biggest number and pretending it is the most representative.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 27-June-2007, 03:53 AM
eburacum45's Avatar
eburacum45 eburacum45 is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: old york
Posts: 5,735
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens View Post
I always thought that the universe was supposed to look the same from all places, or that all places should appear to be the "center" of the universe. Doesn't that contradict this if we appear to be moving vis-a-vis the CBR? Though it's only a small part of the speed of light, so maybe it's not that significant?
The universe does look the same from all places, but not at all velocities. Our movement relative to the Cosmic background seems to be a real movement, perhaps caused by random inequalities in the distribution of mass in the universe in our region of space. In particular, we may be moving to a very large concentration of mass called the Great Attractor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Attractor
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How fast do changes appear after changing ones DNA? afterburner Science and Technology 6 11-October-2006 03:06 AM
How fast afterburner Space/Astronomy Questions and Answers 5 15-May-2006 05:23 AM
2003 TIME DRIFT Conspiracy Theories 19 04-August-2003 04:40 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.0.0
©  2006 Bad Astronomy and Universe Today