Hey,

As I've said before, I'm fascinated by our Universe. I've read (not so extensively, though. Pardon, if at all, any misconception) about the Big Bang, and I some time ago I began to think about it. It states that the Universe, everything that exists, was created by an explosion. However, even though I'm very open-minded, I found it extremely hard to believe that Nature, at least on Earth, was created that way. How can humans be so perfect (relatively) if we came from something so random? How can a baby form by joining two cells, and then grow inside its mother's uterus? How is it that we grow and die? Where did humans come from? How did our brains, which I consider the second most complex thing after our Universe, get to work that way? How can animals be so perfect (again, relatively) and diverse? How is it that we think, that we have perception? How do flowers reproduce with water and sunlight? How did life form? What IS life? And what about stars? If they shine due to elements fusing in their core, where did the elements come from? How did sound, light, and water get to their present form? How did we get our lungs, kidneys, eyes, ears, limbs, etc.? How can we see? Where did the Big Bang come from? What proves do we have regarding the accuracy of the Big Bang? Why didn't the Big Bang create just one huge, titanic planet?

Maybe there are some questions that do not have to do with what I'm asking.
My question is: how is that everything, so perfect and unparalleled, could come out just like that?

P.S. I'm absolutely not implying God is the answer.

Let there be light.

Seriously it is a good mix. Given enough time and the right conditions can allow for a number of options. The presence of oxygen so early in the universe with the primordial hydrogen is a significant new find by the Hubble Observatory. After reading the intro click the full story button.

Being in a universe with signs of early life in space debris opens a wide range of possibilities. The bonding asymmetry of hydrogen and water give unique properties essential to life.

It is almost as if life is a sign of disorder, a thing that must happen as a result of entropy. Inevitable. Possibility if the degeneration of simplicity into an order of complexity is the cause of life. Then the arrival of awareness in an intelligent life form would start with it examining its surroundings.

Typically then any life form developing sentience would start with a highly ego centric and limited view until forced by events to accept its reality.

P.S. I'm absolutely not implying God is not the answer either.

Number of atoms in universe 10*80. Number of atoms I actually like 10*30. That's a pretty shocking ratio in my opinion.

More seriously, biologists don't have put a lot of effort into finding out just how life ended up the way it has, and while many are amazed by life's diversity and splendor, none I know of think the individual examples of it are perfect.

Part of the search for the right conditions has been the analysis for what is important to life. I have just heard a very good podcast on the Australian science radio station where a team has looked at a different approach.

It may be a little while before it is is printed so line two describes a mission to examine the sun to see if it is unique or regular. As a star it is described as a typical yellow dwarf star and with very little to distinguish it from so much of the rest of the yellow dwarf stars with the main difference being that it has about 95% more mass than all other yellow dwarf stars.

Red dwarf stars outnumber yellow dwarf stars by about seven or ten to one.

The team added the information that being a single star rather than a binary or a triplet, quad or higher configuration has almost no impact on the result of the chances of a suitable planet being in the habitable zone.

There is plenty more to it all yet.

Perhaps the universe has always existed in recurring episodes. Some episodes would have "exploded" too much, and not coagulated well. Another, perhaps, too slow and re-convened as a singularity too quickly. As humans we have a rather small and limited view--even the most brilliant of us could not do it alone. Of this I am convinced. Our brains at the individual level are too small to grasp the universe. As a group, we can work and collect information and perhaps get close though!

Point is, none of us knows, but we can imagine. The universe as we know it seems to be nicely set, and the odds against it are tremendous. Imagine though, that you are at home playing poker with some friends. You have lost a lot of chips, but a moment before I show up you get a royal flush dealt to you. Acting however you need to, you "persuade" the others you have a weak hand and to go all in. I walk in just as the hands are revealed to find you scooping up chips left and right. "Wow!" I comment. "You have been doing well!". In reality, not so much! I walked in with no comprehension of any earlier events and simply see a rare and unlikely event that happened to work out well in your favor.

Chances are I would not want to join that poker game, but the example perhaps can get you started on imagining one way the universe can exist defying any seeming odds. The one we see is not necessarily the only way it's ever been. We take ourselves to be "special" and "against the odds", when in reality we are conscious and exist only because the odds finally lined up after so many non working universi.

There is an astronomy cast episode about this, which is what came to mind as I was writing. They talk about the various ideas, one of which I just briefly touched on here (and poorly at that, I would imagine. I am quite good at typing insufficient explanations to complex subjects as involved as this one!). There should also be some good help in the show notes.

/Runs off to astronomy cast to find the episode...

Try Episode 45, if that's not it I'll look again but I'm pretty sure that's it.

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None to speak of

What do you mean, perfect? Humans are fairly robust life forms, but they can be killed in a frighteningly large number of ways, thus perhaps not so perfect.

But yours is the "argument from incredulity." You present no evidence of one thing or another. It's just, "I can't imagine how things could have worked out like this."

Well, one thing you don't seem to be considering is the truly vast stretches of time involved in the evolution of this planet's species, stretches of time that you have NO IDEA how long a time that is.

It is amazing, but the fossil record, for one, shows pretty clearly a natural progression to the plants and animals alive on the planet today.

Still shaking your head and wondering, "How?" Read MacArthur fellow, Santa Fe Institute prof. Stuart Kauffman's book At Home in the Universe. He'll tell you.

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

P.S. I'm absolutely not implying God is not the answer either.[/Quote/....

Yes I spotted the change. and as ignoring it might make it go away, I will.

Leib., You are asking a life time of questions and although some might attempt to answer all of this... not me. However i will try to help.
We are, 'no way' perfect. You obviously have not seen me. We get sick, we die. All to often it would seem for your perfection to apply to us. The animals to suffer great hardship and death. Whether its bio-physical or microbial. We are not perfect. This Planet in all its splendor is also flawed. Back to Magrathea... Things have taken four and a half billion years to get to this imperfect state... Its a good question. but answering it could take another billion years or so. I would advise you to think about all this perceived perfection... Mark.

Not an explosion.

An expansion.

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If I set the budget, we'd have Ares and more. Unfortunately, I don't set the budget, and Ares is just too expensive and too far out for us to accomplish our goals within the budget we were given.

If we halt the ISS, all versions of Ares, and transport Orion and Altair aboard DIRECTv3's Jupiter family of Shuttle-Derived Launch Vehicles, we just might make it back to the Moon by 2020.

laib,

The Big Bang marks the beginning of matter/energy and the physical laws of the universe. It is a theory that uses observation and known physics to explain the origin of our universe. What happened before it is quite possibly beyond our ability to comprehend, given that all we have to go on at present is observation of this universe. After the Big Bang, matter/energy condensed to the simplest stable form, hydrogen. Vast quantities of hydrogen cannot form planets but rather formed Generation III stars and Black Holes. Since then, stars have created heavier elements through fusion. Heavier elements than iron are created when stars explode. These heavier elements are what form terrestrial planets like the Earth. Physics and chemistry bound the processes that we observe. Water has a strong chemical bond and so exists almost anywhere there is oxygen, hydrogen, and insufficient energy to break them apart. Sound occurs via the physical interaction of matter and can be found anywhere there is normal matter though it may not be confined to the audible range of human ears. Light occurs due to quantum level changes in atoms due to energy input or quantum decay.

Many of these things have been discussed here but some study of basic physics would serve you well toward an overall understanding. Since we cannot discuss everything at once it would help if you looked through other posts for information and narrowed the scope of future questions.



Life is a collection of chemical reactions and and a blueprint for reproduction that causes it to reproduce. I will not try to explain the origin of life here. Since the origin of life on Earth, living things have spread to every habitable niche. A small portion of living things have grown extremely complex, but this was not random. Life progresses by the simple but powerful method of trial and error. The "trial" is due to imperfect methods of reproduction, and the error is simple survival.

Biology is generally beyond the scope of this forum, I suggest that you spend some time over a talkorigins to learn more about this.

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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana

Who's to say this is perfect? If the universe turned out totally different, like I dunno, here's a couple of examples, square shaped planets instead of round, and no life at all. You could just as easily call that perfect.

The reason why you see it as being perfect, is because, that's the way YOU'RE seeing it.

I agree. We have nothing to compare it to. As a result we tend to think of it as "perfect" or "it couldn't be any other way without _________ (fill in the blank)." We can apply a lot of experiments and study to the way it is, but have a rather difficult time with how it could have been. Even with the ability to acknowledge could-have-beens, they are difficult to picture.

This is, in essence, an argument from incredulity--and with good reason. I think the debate with ID is an extension of this, but as several have stated that is not the question here, so I will not discuss it. Incredulity (is that spelled right?) is a part of human nature--a natural reaction to things we don't understand. Wonder about things such as trees, birds, and space ships are readily researchable and reasonably palatable. Wonder about things like the origin of natural laws and structure of the universe are "slightly" larger and exponentially more difficult to understand; I am almost convinced our brains tend to shut down or limit themselves somehow when questions get too big. Acknowledging that this happens allows us to try and work around it, which is--in part--one of the benefits of a forum such as this.

At some point the science of the universe exceeds our understanding and even hypothesis defy our understanding. At this point it is easier (for me at least) to look at the functioning of our minds and discover the ways in which we limit ourselves, and then find a work around of those limits. Once we are willing and comfortable playing around the limits and over them, then we can work with the science part without going insane.

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None to speak of

I don't mean getting sick and dying. Nobody can deny the complexity of the human body, lets say (even though there's nothing else to compare it to. Since there's nothing else, then IT IS complex for all we know). How does our brain tell our bodies to move? How is it that every muscle is placed right where they are? How is it that we breathe, and by doing so we exchange oxygen for carbon dioxide? There are many things, and maybe I'm in the wrong way, but I'm new to the whole Astronomy/Cosmology/Universe thing.


So life developed from the same elements that emerged from the stars?


Maybe that's what makes us so perfect: there's nothing else out there.

Yes, the heavy elements (everything except hydrogen) were all created in stars, and the elements heavier than, say, iron, were created in supernovae.

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"I'm as accurate as any psychic. And I'm a cartoon!" -- Squidward

"Arrrgh, the laws of physics be a harsh mistress!" -- Bender

Don't confuse open mindedness with the ability to understand. I would hazard to say that most of us on a website like this are openminded, but would find it fundamentally impossible to truly understand or grasp many things about the universe. A fundamental flaw that creationists/intelligent design proponents have (and I am *not* suggesting you are, I am just a making a point that fits your question) is that they seem to think that these complex lifeforms that we and other higher lifeforms are, could not have come together "randomly."

What they fail to realize or grasp is that evolution on its own gives direction by its own process. It isn't pure random chance.

The following is not posted as a serious argument, but a related and perhaps interesting tale.

There was this guy who one day invests some time an effort and constructs a magnificent miniature model of the solar system along with mechanical motions and all. He then invites some scientists to his home. Upon arriving all the guests start wondering at the model and say: Wow, that's really, really nice. From where did you get that.

The host replies: I don't know, I came down this morning and it was here.

Gusts: What do you mean it was here. You must have put it there.

Host: No, It must have come about by accident.

Guests: No it could not have come about by accident. You have put it there.

Host: If this simple model could not have come about by accident, then how could the much more magnificent and complex order in the universe have come about by accident?

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"They reasoned that an object situated at the center and related equally to the extremes in every direction can have no impulse to move in any specific direction. In fact, they compared the situation of such an object with that of a man violently but equally hungry and thirsty, standing at the same distance from food and drink and unable to decide in which direction to move." - Aristotle

We can not cover it all here. The question regarding the formation of planetary disks and the coalition of planets that might one day support life and just how that evolves into the sentient life form that we think we are.... Just what is it you are suggesting. It did not happen., but it did. It could not have happened that way., yes it did. Just grow that little bit more and, except what is reality. A study of orbital mechanics and the workings of gravitational fields will reveal that this Universe, Galaxy, and solar system are nothing more or less than accidents of probability and facts. Looking for the 'why' will not answer your question. We do not know what triggered the initial expansion. BB. Larger and elaborate particle colliders might reveal more of this mistery... Mark.

Did you mean "accept"? Or except? I think I understand what your gist here, but that word completely changes the meaning of the entire paragraph! Either way makes sense, but which was your intention?

Scientifically I don't think there is much argument, but philisophically this makes for rather exciting and stimulating conversation in which everyone and no one is right.

A couple thoughts here. Astronomy/Cosmology/Universe is not biology, which is the study of life on Earth. They are all science in the same sense that flies and birds are both animals that fly--but confusing one for the other will cause you serious grief and pain until you can seperate them. They are completely different and all but unrelated fields of study. I do encourage you to look into all of them, but keep them seperate. Chemistry applies to both, but is neither...does that start to make any sense?

Check out Talk Origins if someone else hasn't already suggested it. That is an excellent place to find information, and this is an excellent place to ask for further "fleshing out" of said information.

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None to speak of

Absolutely - I agree with this 100%. There are few things more infuriating than to hear someone argue that the present array of living organisms are too complex to have been formed randomly. To which the only appropriate response is "who on Earth is arguing that they were?"

While genetic mutations that form one pillar of the theory may have a random basis, the overarching mechanism of Evolution is most assuredly not.

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"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams

"Certainly, in the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is often useful." - Ian Faith

So, what set the system up to work that way? I know that plants and animals can adapt to changing world climates and environmental changes. but that requires a very clever systems designer. Who or what designed it, I don't know. We can't do it. As smart as we are, we can't take the raw ingredients and make life. We can't make a flower from the raw materials. How in the heck did the raw materials know how to get themselves together to make flowers or people? Jigsaw puzzles can't assemble themselves.

I liked Michael's first answer.

First, I do believe that radomness and disorder can be called uncertainty. Uncertainties can be decieving and misunderstood. You see uncertainty does not mean there can not emerge order because if you predicted disorder that provides the certainty of uncertainty you would have made a correct hypothesis. If you were wrong and order evolved, you would have order around you but uncertainty as to how to predict it.

Let's look at one of the basic tenants of evolution, survival fitness. How many times in the early universe did primary particles join into unstable particles and elements that fell apart. Every now and then a stable particle union generated elements. These elements began attracting one another and compound masses began to take shape. Some dense and hot, and others thin, gaseous and cold.

Processes occured on some of these bodies that were cool enough and yet enough energy to form compounds such as water, an extremely corrosive agent. There were metals and rust and nutrient rich soil. These compounds became more and more complex. The ones that were best suited for survival move on and the others feel back into their more basic elements. Somewhere along the way one compound began to use other compounds for survival, the vast majority never surviving, but a few did. Then as they began consuming other things they were able to manupulate the mass to make more things like themselves. There could have been a billion different life startups on this planet before one took hold. There could have been other life startups on this planet that survived longer than ours has and there would be no surviving evidence at all.

What is special and perfect is that the universe likes plurality. The universe takes some core basic elements and through density. speed and distance provide a spectacular array of works.

So perfection comes out of the chaos, your perfect eye to see, lungs to breathe because the mass that you came from was lucky a whole lot of times and you won against the biggest lottery odds in the Universe. Out of that chaos also came the butt to poop, so it's not all perfect.

Yet, my friend. Yet.

(Flowers may be another issue)

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None to speak of

I would add that I don't understand how, although I think we are getting closer. The fact that I'm standing here defies odds until I realize I am merely a succesful end run of one of a trillion other non-succesful attempts at not only human making, but speciation, planet making, and I'll even throw in universe making. It is very trippy--gives me thought vertigo, but it's an exciting proposition all the same.

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None to speak of

I liken that to about the fourth or fifth time T2 (liquid metal) morphed out of the tub of molten iron, sort of like life morphing out of an entropy decay here on Earth.

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If I set the budget, we'd have Ares and more. Unfortunately, I don't set the budget, and Ares is just too expensive and too far out for us to accomplish our goals within the budget we were given.

If we halt the ISS, all versions of Ares, and transport Orion and Altair aboard DIRECTv3's Jupiter family of Shuttle-Derived Launch Vehicles, we just might make it back to the Moon by 2020.

We barely understand the universe and you think it's too simple?

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All moderations in purple.

You ain't nobody 'til you've been banned.

Eh? You're joking, right? Perhaps for Questions and Answers, to be sure.

However, Off-topic Babbling has more than seen it's share of various discussions on Biological topics.

So, NOT beyond the scope of this forum by any means. Merely a misplaced thread.

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If I set the budget, we'd have Ares and more. Unfortunately, I don't set the budget, and Ares is just too expensive and too far out for us to accomplish our goals within the budget we were given.

If we halt the ISS, all versions of Ares, and transport Orion and Altair aboard DIRECTv3's Jupiter family of Shuttle-Derived Launch Vehicles, we just might make it back to the Moon by 2020.

Understood, however helping people get over the "AWE" of it all and down to real biological workings often requires tons of info from basic on up. There are other sites with much of this info already available.




The physical properties and laws of our universe allow for life to begin and evolve. Nothing else is needed. Organic chemistry is common enough, even where life itself cannot survive. Once there is life it adapts or dies, simplicity itself.

Evolution is not a complex scripted plan. It is the simple and natural result of organic chemistry and the environment. Creating straw men will not help you understand. Current developed life does not pop into existance from nothing. There is a thread of ever changing blueprints from previous life. Those blueprints, or DNA, determine whether a flower or human develops. The only questions left are exactly how the first replicaton occured and exactly what the conditions were in the remote past where it happened.


BTW, humans are certainly not a perfect design. We are all very different in both subtle and unsubtle ways. I found it quite interesting some 35 years ago that Grey's Anatomy was wrong more than it was right. The possible differences in human construction are amazing. I found this out while searching for information on a somewhat rare "extra" tendon that I have. Grey's Anatomy has increasingly encompassed this and now discusses many of the more commonly encountered differences. But biologically we are different too! The use of hormones, enzymes, and peptides varies widely. The Portugese even have RH negative blood! Humans, like other living things, have a wide ranging mish-mash of built in survival characteristics. This is both the reason for and the result of evolution.

Unfortunately we as humans have now largely sidestepped evolution with our intelligence. We have also artificially changed the course of evolution for many of our crops, livestock, and beasts of burden. By doing this we only weaken our own future survival.

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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana

So please link to them so the paduan learner can access them.

You're absolutely right - we're by no means as homogeneous as was once thought.

But we can interbreed at will. Try that with an ape and all hell breaks loose.

No.

We've neither sidestepped evolution, nor have we weakened our own future survival.

We have merely entered into a new evolutionary plane, the output curves of which are a bit sharper than previous generations.

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If I set the budget, we'd have Ares and more. Unfortunately, I don't set the budget, and Ares is just too expensive and too far out for us to accomplish our goals within the budget we were given.

If we halt the ISS, all versions of Ares, and transport Orion and Altair aboard DIRECTv3's Jupiter family of Shuttle-Derived Launch Vehicles, we just might make it back to the Moon by 2020.

Man on the moon asked what i meant to say... except accept... Oh bother I got it wrong again... and spell check has no idea what I was attempting to say., and that was that you should make some effort to take in what has been said. Not intending you to put aside. You have uncovered a raw nerve... I have a problem in that I frequently fumble the actual reality and confusion is rife. I trust this has cleared that foolishness up... except that...accept that... why did I not listen to my English teacher.
Perfection is so rare you will not ever find it. The very structure of the Universe is a random confusion that has at its hart probability and improbability. The four and a half billion years of evolutionary progress is not part of some grand plan. Each and every step forward is a matter of survival. If you happen to be a tree then its a very different world than the reptile attempting to warm its blood by basking on a rock while looking like a stick. Its all evolution at work. If it works you survive. Breed and your kind wins the trophy. Life. Fail and you perish into historic oblivion. Life as we know it has shown to be tremendously tenacious. If it can it will., and has. Mark.

Sure we can, Astromark! Don't give up so easily. So much MORE has been covered on these forums that I'm ASTOUNDED that you make such a disclaimer.

Keep the faith, old chap.

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If I set the budget, we'd have Ares and more. Unfortunately, I don't set the budget, and Ares is just too expensive and too far out for us to accomplish our goals within the budget we were given.

If we halt the ISS, all versions of Ares, and transport Orion and Altair aboard DIRECTv3's Jupiter family of Shuttle-Derived Launch Vehicles, we just might make it back to the Moon by 2020.

If you happen to be a tree that first step forward is extremely difficult...

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* Never doubt there is Truth; just doubt that you have it!