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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 30-June-2008, 09:52 PM
korjik korjik is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommac View Post
From the distant observer these two are the same.
If time stops at the EH or if light can not escape then time has stopped. The light at exactly the EH would take an infinite time to reach us.

As one approaches a stop in time in order to keep the speed of light constant locally distances need to contract appropraitely. So as time slows ... the speed of light is constant so distances need to shorten. as we approach the stopage of time the space in that area needs to contract ( I am not sure if the dimensions curl up or what ) for example :

From wikipedia


so
m=c * 1⁄299,792,458 seconds

As seconds relatively shorten ( local observation vs distant observation ) then so must m. Removing the constants ...

m is proportial to t.

So if time is stopped the meter is a point. Or if you dont believe in that nonsense ... as time approaches stopping the meter approaches a point.

Now that all happens at the EH ( from the view point of a distant observer ).
So what is the sphere of the EH that you discuss ... At the point that a star collapses to the exact size of an EH the star no longer has any volume as any mesurements ( say in meters ) would make any sense since meters are a point ... per the above argument.

I think there is still a radius however but no volume. So the way I visualize this is a circle from any vantage point. However the circle is absolutely flat.
An event horizion is a spherical surface enclosing an area. It isnt a circle, it is a spherical shell.

To the distant observer, the length contraction is subsumed into the time dialation. The space that a black hole occupies does not look distorted from outside.

You should read on wiki about the Schwarzschild radius. That explains the radius of the event horizion.

To find the radius of the event horizion you use an energy balance equation.

You start with a particle at a position r with a velocity v in a gravitational field. You then have the particle escape to infinity. This is how you find escape velocity. This equation looks like this

.5mv^2+(-GmM/r^2)=.5m(vf)^2+(-GmM/(rf)^2)

In this equation m is the test mass, M is the BH mass, v is the start test velocity, G is the gravitational constant, r is the start test radius, (vf) is the final test velocity, (rf) is the final test distance.

In this case we are looking at the particle escaping. We look at the minimum requirements for escape. In this case vf goes to 0 as rf goes to infinity. This is convenent cause it makes the two terms on the right side equal zero giving us

.5mv^2+(-GmM/r^2)=0

now for escaping from a black hole, we look for the point where v=c to escape.

.5mc^2-GmM/r^2=0

Solve for r

r^2=2GM/c^2

Square root both sides and you get a radius at which the escape velocity equals the speed of light. The definition of event horizon

Notice that this radius is in all directions. This gives you a spherical shell of radius r.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 01-July-2008, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by korjik View Post
An event horizion is a spherical surface enclosing an area. It isnt a circle, it is a spherical shell.
How can a spherical shell exist without having distance inside? The two poles meet. It has 0 depth. What is a spherical shell with 0 depth.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 01-July-2008, 04:14 AM
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I get all of this ... but it is not real space inside the black hole so ... what is really meant by a spherical shell ... does that mean that this shell displaces v ammount of space? What does that even mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by korjik View Post
An event horizion is a spherical surface enclosing an area. It isnt a circle, it is a spherical shell.

To the distant observer, the length contraction is subsumed into the time dialation. The space that a black hole occupies does not look distorted from outside.

You should read on wiki about the Schwarzschild radius. That explains the radius of the event horizion.

To find the radius of the event horizion you use an energy balance equation.

You start with a particle at a position r with a velocity v in a gravitational field. You then have the particle escape to infinity. This is how you find escape velocity. This equation looks like this

.5mv^2+(-GmM/r^2)=.5m(vf)^2+(-GmM/(rf)^2)

In this equation m is the test mass, M is the BH mass, v is the start test velocity, G is the gravitational constant, r is the start test radius, (vf) is the final test velocity, (rf) is the final test distance.

In this case we are looking at the particle escaping. We look at the minimum requirements for escape. In this case vf goes to 0 as rf goes to infinity. This is convenent cause it makes the two terms on the right side equal zero giving us

.5mv^2+(-GmM/r^2)=0

now for escaping from a black hole, we look for the point where v=c to escape.

.5mc^2-GmM/r^2=0

Solve for r

r^2=2GM/c^2

Square root both sides and you get a radius at which the escape velocity equals the speed of light. The definition of event horizon

Notice that this radius is in all directions. This gives you a spherical shell of radius r.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 01-July-2008, 06:30 PM
Disinfo Agent Disinfo Agent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommac View Post
The two poles meet.
Where did you get that from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommac View Post
[...] it is not real space inside the black hole so ...
And that?
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 01-July-2008, 06:49 PM
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Tim Thompson Tim Thompson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommac View Post
... and behind the EH I dont think that Tims reasoning of events holds true.
It's not "my reasoning", it is simple general relativity. It is a fact of science, whether you think it holds true or not. If you don't like it, think of a better theory than general relativity, and you will become justifiably famous. But as it is, you aren't making much progress in understanding anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommac View Post
How can a spherical shell exist without having distance inside?
It does have distance inside.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommac View Post
... but it is not real space inside the black hole so ...
Yes it is real space inside the black hole.

Everything you think you know about black holes is entirely wrong. Furthermore, you refuse to believe that anyone could possibly know more about black holes than you do. All we ever get is what you "think about on the way to work" or some such fantasy. If you want to learn, I mean if you really want to learn about black holes, then do it. There are plenty of reasonable books out there, and you have already been directed towards perfectly reasonable sources. All you are doing here is demonstrating a remarkable & stubborn resistance to knowledge that will not serve you well.

Edited to add: I posted this before realizing that tommac had been banned and cannot reply. Nonetheless, should he see it, I stick by my advice.
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Last edited by Tim Thompson; 01-July-2008 at 07:22 PM.. Reason: Added Comment
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 02-July-2008, 10:10 PM
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In case Tommac takes a peek at this thread, I suggest reading through the previous BAUT thread "Black hole dimension", as well as the website I linked to in this page.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 06-July-2008, 07:06 AM
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loglo loglo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabianq View Post
I guess I dont get it.
(probably to stupid)

but from what i have read...

gravitational acceleration is the acceleration of an object caused by the force of gravity from another object. this gravitational acceleration is equal to the escape velocity.

if the escape velocity is equal to the speed of light, then objects falling into a body like a black hole will reach the escape velocity at the event horizon.

why would and what would stop a mass's velocity/speed from being equal to the gravitational acceleration? I would have to say nothing except for the fact that mass cannot reach c. so it must convert to energy in order to cross the event horizon.

I dont know

Your incorrect assumption is this:-
Quote:
this gravitational acceleration is equal to the escape velocity.
Escape velocity is proportional to the gravitational pull and distance from centre of mass. They are not the same as they are not in the same units - m/s as opposed to m/s^2.

The escape velocity from the surface of the Earth is 11 000 m/s and the gravitational pull is 9.8m/s^2.

The escape velocity of a BH at the event horizon (EH) is 3x10^8m/s and is dependent on BH mass alone. The gravitational acceleration at the EH will be dependent on BH mass alone too but you should be able to see that it is not going to be the same figure.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 06-July-2008, 08:14 AM
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