Chatroom
 

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > Science and Space > Space/Astronomy Questions and Answers
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

   

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2008, 09:19 AM
aformalevent aformalevent is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2
Smile The Problem With Singularities

Why is it assumed that singularities are at the center of black holes?

It is common to hear the terms black hole and singularity used interchangeably, but they are defined differently. A black hole is defined as a region of space from which nothing can escape, bounded by the event horizon. A singularity is an infinitely small region of infinite density at which point the mechanics of gravity break down.

The mathematics of singularities was used to theorize that black holes would exist in the universe. These black holes were found and identified, but this does not prove that they contain singularities.

A black hole must contain sufficient matter to create an event horizon, and this matter must be contained within its boundaries. These are finite boundaries, however, and thus there is no requirement for matter to be in an infinitely small space. The matter will not be at an infinite density, and thus there is not a singularity. Space-time is intact, Einsteins equations do not break down.

As a thought experiment, think about how a singularity could ever come to exist. How could matter enter a region with zero volume?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2008, 10:04 AM
thorkil2 thorkil2 is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 473
Default

I believe the usual explanation is that the matter itself is annihilated so that only the gravitional field remains. The problem with your question is that there is a threshhold at which the internal pressure of highly compressed matter is no longer sufficient to support it. Degeneracy pressures will not support the structure if there is suffienct matter within a smal enough diameter, so it must collapse. The math is pretty solid. Many have tried to find ways to avoid what Eddington called "absurd behavior" but the consequences when a sufficiently large star can no longer support itself with heat from fusion processes are inevitable. It must collapse. And as it collapses, since gravity is related to radius, the gravitational field only gets stronger as the star falls inward on itself. It's important to understand (and not often pointed out) that it is the singularity from which nothing can escape. The event horizon is simply the distance from the singularity over which it retains that influence. It is only outside the event horizon that escape velocity drops below c.
__________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately, it kills all its pupils. Hector Berlioz

"To complete the picture all the photons can be seen to be synchronising friction on and off throughout the overall cone which itself is synchronised to the equal and opposite reaction of equilateral triangulation"... by a scientificator in ATM, too priceless to be lost to posterity.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2008, 10:57 AM
astromark's Avatar
astromark astromark is online now
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: New Zealand.
Posts: 3,482
Default

Well said, Thorkil2. I wish I had said that...
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2008, 04:15 PM
Cougar's Avatar
Cougar Cougar is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 4,823
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aformalevent View Post
A singularity is an infinitely small region of infinite density at which point the mechanics of gravity break down.
I could be wrong, but it seems obvious that the term 'singularity' as applied to black holes was derived from the concept of a mathematical singularity, which has been well-known and in use for probably hundreds of years. And it simply means the mathematics become UNDEFINED at that point. Though it may be described as such in popular science books, a black hole singularity is NOT some magical "point" that is "infinitely small" with "infinite density" and therefore "infinite spacetime curvature."

As noted in wiki, a singularity is not a thing.
Many theories in physics have mathematical singularities of one kind or another. Equations for these physical theories predict that the rate of change of some quantity becomes infinite or increases without limit. This is generally a sign for a missing piece in the theory, as in the Ultraviolet Catastrophe and in renormalization.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aformalevent View Post
The matter will not be at an infinite density, and thus there is not a singularity. Space-time is intact....
I prefer to think this, too, but of course we have no evidence to support this... or any position on the matter, so this is conjecture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aformalevent View Post
...Einsteins equations do not break down.
Actually, they do, as the Penrose-Hawking singularity theorems demonstrate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aformalevent View Post
As a thought experiment, think about how a singularity could ever come to exist. How could matter enter a region with zero volume?
Exactly. That would be ridiculous nonsense. A singularity is not a thing. It is simply an indication that the system within which one is working (in this case, GR) is incomplete.
__________________
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2008, 04:47 PM
tdvance's Avatar
tdvance tdvance is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Bowie, MD
Posts: 3,651
Default

The singularity in a black hole is in the General Relativity equations (there is a location in the black hole where a lot of quantities diverge to infinity)--it is still possible that Quantum Gravity could eliminate the singularity. It's actually not the case that black holes come from singularity theory--they come from General Relativity, which also happens to put a singularity inside them.

Basically, the singularity is the place where we don't know what happens next, where another theory would have to come into play.
__________________
-----
Todd (Bowie, MD, US, North America, Earth, Sol System, Vega region, Local Bubble, Orion arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo A Cluster, Virgo supercluster, the universe in which spock is clean shaven)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

personal page: http://blog.astrosketches.info
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2008, 05:55 PM
John Mendenhall John Mendenhall is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New Castle DE
Posts: 1,715
Default Too Much Energy in a Small Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdvance View Post
.

Basically, the singularity is the place where we don't know what happens next, where another theory would have to come into play.
Good article on an alternate theory in this month's Scientific American. Basically, the idea is that it may not be possible to get unlimited energy into a Planck volume because gravity becomes repulsive. Stay tuned, it's an interesting idea.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 30-October-2008, 06:48 PM
Jeff Root Jeff Root is online now
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 6,187
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorkil2 View Post
I believe the usual explanation is that the matter itself is annihilated
so that only the gravitional field remains.
Sorry, thorkil2, that isn't right. Perhaps you had Hawking radiation in
mind, which involves matter/antimatter pair creation and annihilation.

Although I don't personally have a philosophical objection to matter
becoming infinitely dense at the center of a black hole, I see two
possible ways to avoid such an infinity, and both seem probable.

One is described by general relativity; the other by quantum mechanics.

As an expired star collapses, forming a black hole, the matter is
squeezed into a smaller and smaller volume. The density increases
without limit. That causes the curvature of spacetime (or gravitational
field strength) to increase without limit. That causes time dilation.
The time dilation means that the collapse occurs more slowly relative
to the outside universe than it would in a Newtonian universe. So the
matter is always falling toward the center, into a gravity well which
gets deeper and deeper, without limit, stretching farther and farther
in the radial direction. The deeper the gravity well gets, the greater
the spacetime curvature, which means the greater the time dilation.
Space turns into time in the radial direction. As matter falls closer
and closer to the center, the more space is converted to time. So
the matter can never reach the exact center-- it will be approaching
the center for all eternity, or until the black hole evaporates due to
Hawking radiation.

Quantum mechanics describes matter in a way limited by uncertainty.
The position and momentum of any chunk of matter cannot both be
described precisely. The matter is fuzzy. Given that we know the
matter is falling and thus must have some momentum, we can't say
precisely where it is. That would appear to limit the minimum volume
of the matter at the center of a black hole, even if there is no force
which can stop or even slow the collapse.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis
__________________
http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

"I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

"The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is the measurement problem an example of essential incompleteness? borman Science and Technology 7 04-November-2008 04:27 AM
A Complete Solution for the Solar Corona Heating Problem Attiyah Zahdeh Against the Mainstream 4 05-November-2006 06:33 PM
Orbital Debris a Growing Problem with No End in Sight ToSeek Space Exploration 24 17-August-2006 10:50 PM
Anyone have this weird PC problem? Tranquility Off-Topic Babbling 17 09-September-2005 05:29 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.0.0
©  2006 Bad Astronomy and Universe Today