I was reading an article about a group of researchers that used spectrochemical analysis as a technique to find carbon dioxide on another planet outside of our solar system.

while the article was not exactly clear on how the technique worked, i am assuming that as the planet eclipsed the star, the light from the star showed the presence of the gas in the spectrum of the star as it refracted through the atmosphere.

I was wondering if the same technique could be used to search for planets that have chemical structures in the atmosphere that are not made in nature like sulfur hexafluorides, chlorofluorocarbons, hydro fluorocarbons and benzine rings.

silly idea?

just musing here...

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-work in progress--

I really have no clue about the article, and your assumption (based on my limits) sounds reasonable to me. So; with that in mind:
I would think so, but wouldn't those chemicals need to be in an enormous concentration? I'm sure the margins for being able to do what they did on a planetary basis was hard enough.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

I guess this is the article.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...-71BD41B036D4}

Bring on James Webb. :-)

That would be my take on it. The "non-natural" compounds are found in very trace quantities in our atmosphere and I don't think we are anywhere close to the technology to detect those in other atmospheres. Its a clever idea though.

I think at this point we'd be thrilled just to detect something that we assume is associated with life, like free oxygen, let alone something that is associated with technology.

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

I guess the question i had was spawned by a couple of things,
one the article i was referencing (although with no source) and
two, when i was staring at the hope diamond here in Washington d.c.

(this image is from the www.mnh.si.edu website on the http://mineralsciences.si.edu page for anybody that wishes to flag this picture, i do believe that the Smithsonian museum of natural history is a public website that is paid for by the taxpayers of the united states and has plenty of bandwidth for which hot linking is not an issue. If this image violates in anyway the terms and conditions of this web page (www.bautforum.com) then the moderators may remove it post haste and i apologize in advance for hogging any bandwidth and setting a negative example to new members on this board. thank you for your consideration )

[Moderator note: image removed. If you have any doubts, don't do it. This is not an economic issue. ]

so what does the Hope diamond have to do with the spectrochemical analysis question?
well apparently, the reason that the diamond is blue is because of the presence of boron atoms. the strong deep blue color comes from a concentration of boron atoms that are equivalent to 1 atom of boron to 1 million atoms of carbon. that is a 1 PPM concentration of boron in the lattice which gives it its intense blue color.
http://books.google.com/books?id=WQp...um=5&ct=result
page 64
i was thinking that if such tiny traces of elements can cause such a huge change in the way a material absorbs and reflects light, the it seems to me that maybe larger concentrations of chemicals in an atmosphere of a planet can change the visible spectrum of a star.

doing some research, here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=5OT...um=8&ct=result

it seems that our own earths atmosphere has concentrations of 80 parts per million (80 PPM) of perfluoromethane and tetrafluoromethane and 533 PPM of dichlorofluoromethane and 286 PPM of trichlorofluoromethane (page 9 of the reference above)

I would have to wonder if such concentrations can affect the spectrum of a given star during a planetary transit.

maybe it does, but as swift and Neowatcher pointed out, the concentrations are very low when compared to the total spectrum fingerprint of the star by itself.
if current technology is not good enough to detect such a theoretical change in the spectrum of a given star during a planetary transit then maybe in the future technology sensitive enough to do so may be deployed.

hmmm.....

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-work in progress--

Yes; think of taking a chip sample of the diamond and do the spectroscopy in front of an aviation search light. (like those used to light the shuttle on the pad)

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

i really cant quantify it because i have no idea how sensitive the technology is when it comes to electromagnetic absorption spectroscopy and Fraunhofer lines.
i mean the technology is almost 200 years old. i am sure there has been advances in the technology since its inception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraunhofer_lines

an extremely high resolution of our own suns spectrum shows literally thousands of Fraunhofer lines. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectroscopy)

and that is only in the visible spectrum.
is there an area of research that extends spectroscopy into the infrared and ultraviolet spectrum range?

Does anybody here know how sensitive spectroscopy is as it relates to using the most current technology?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hi...r_Spectrum.jpg

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-work in progress--

It'd be nice to see the spectrum of a distant exoplanet giving bright line spectra of uranium and plutonium, mixed with beryllium, and iron...indicating they've achieved success in manipulating half of the curve of binding energy....wouldn't it? pete

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A third rate theory forbids.
A second rate theory explains after the fact.
A first rate theory predicts.
A. Lomonosov

Ha!]
I am assuming that you are suggesting that maybe if a race of aliens have an all out nuclear war and blow them selves up, the spectrum absorption lines of a nuclear blast should be decipherable and my show up.

i wonder if some alien techno giant 1000 light years distant will notice such an absorption line present from a star located in our approximate direction...

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I know a lot about spectroscopic analysis of terrestrial objects in laboratory instruments (such as the Hope diamond analysis you mention). Parts-per-million is easily within the range of such an analysis, and parts-per-billion is quite doable.

Keep in mind that the elemental analysis (boron in diamond) is a little different than the detection of carbon dioxide in gas samples - the former is a visible light range absorption, the latter would usually be done in the near-IR or IR range - but both are absorption measurements and both can be done to ppb levels.

I don't know a lot about the similar astronomical measurements. I suspect the difficulties are a lack of signal from the object of interest, and too much background from other objects (like the star in the system) - but those are just guesses for me. As best as I can tell (like this article from hubblesite.org) the measurement was qualitative, not quantitative, so maybe we are talking about percent in the atmosphere of the planet.

If that is all correct, I assume these measurements will improve as we get bigger and better telescopes.

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

Are you sure it is PPM and not PPB or less ? Your figures are enormous ! One Km3 of air weight approx 1.3 10-9 Kg . There are more or less 5 10-9 Km3 or air so you can see it that with 80+533+286 = 899 PPM of these chemicals in the air , it gives massive amounts !

But I like your idea.

hi!
i was just observing that a one part per million can cause such a catastrophic change in the color of a normally optically transparent elemental structure.
if i can have one boron atom in a lattice of a million carbon atoms and that tiny amount can cause such a huge color change, then i am merely wondering if it also holds true that a tiny amount of other impurities in say an atmosphere can change a spectrum by adding a faint absorption line somewhere in the vast spectrum of the star the said planet eclipsing.

whether or current technology may be able to detect it is another story.

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hi there,
i am not sure, actually, i was just going by what the source i cited said.and apparently, i did not read it correctly.
When i re-read my source, it seems you are correct, as i misread the chart.

The concentrations of the greenhouse gasses I referenced should be shown in (PPT or parts per trillion) and not (PPM or parts per million).

Thanks for bring that to my attention.
and as Swift pointed out above, the corrected data would no doubt make it harder to detect a corresponding spectrum absorption line.

we may need technology to get way better before this idea is (if it can be) realized...

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-work in progress--

On the Smithsonian Institution Department Mineral Sciences's footer, bold as can be, "© Copyright 2008", is a link to Smithsonian :: Copyright, Terms and Conditions:

If you're going to be so thorough -- really above and beyond what's necessary perhaps to try to make some odd point -- in your description of the material, you could proceed it with some minimal investigation. Or, did you, and ask permission and forget to note that?

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in response to 01101001 about the image i hot linked to
i did read this in the link you so graciously provided.

please tell me if i am misreading and misunderstanding this and i am not permitted to use the image file, otherwise, from what I had read, and it seems to me that if 01101001 had kept reading rather than just seemed (in my view anyway) to have flat out stopped reading when all the information needed was acquired to seemingly prove that I was doing something that violated any such terms or agreement. The third sentence clearly says:

then go on to say what fair use is:

http://www.si.edu/copyright/
is this forum anything other than what was listed above?
and:

I need to know, am i misunderstanding this?

I am assuming that this site is a non commercial, and have on several instances read here that this site is actually an educational site.
if this is not correct, could someone please let me know because i had assumed that this site was considered a non-commercial site with educational purposes.
otherwise, check.

i think i did that by linking to the site and saying who is hosing the image.
is this incorrect?
otherwise, check.

Ok, i am providing this now with this post, at least i think i am following the rules
am i?
otherwise, check.

I never altered the picture in any way unless hot linking can alter the digital information.
can it?
otherwise, check

I am hoping and trying my best to comply with all terms and conditions associated with hot linking an image.
pleas let me know if i have failed in any way when it comes to linking to this image.
otherwise, check.


further more,
from here:
http://www.bautforum.com/about-baut/...ml#post1385445
you said:
i was under the assumption that http://www.si.edu is an .edu and a government site. and i thought i did use the image with "acknowledgement"

am i totally wrong in using this image 01101001?
because i really, really thought i was following the rules.

i am sorry if i offended you in any way.

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-work in progress--

If I may I shall divert the thread from the important topic of hot-linking images to the question of the detection of life on extra-solar worlds. The OP's idea of detecting trace quantities of artificial compounds in the atmospheres of exoplanets is one for the far future. At present it is a major achievement to detect water in the spectrum of a hot Jupiter, and we can detect nothing from Earth-like planets. This will change over the coming decades as various space based instruments now on the drawing board are deployed. None of these is AFAIK remotely close to being able to detect trace amounts of fluorocarbons etc.

A more realistic goal is the detection of life. The presence of vegetation on the land surface of Earth affects its reflection spectrum significantly with a sharp edge around 700 nm, known as the “Vegetation Red Edge”. This could be detected in exoplanet spectra with next generation (or two) instruments. An obvious drawback to this strategy is that it is not necessarily the case that alien plants use green chlorophyll for photosynthesis. Another approach is to look for gases generated by biological processes such as O₂, CH₄, and N₂O. The first two can be generated by abiotic processes, but the presence of both would be harder to explain. The presence of highly soluble molecules such as NH₃ and SO₂ could be taken as a negative biomarker as they imply the lack of large bodies of liquid water.

to the moderator:
while i really don't care that the image was removed,
i would like to point out that the Smithsonian institute copyright notice http://www.si.edu/copyright/ says
and the conditions are listed on the page were met and even seem to suggest that i can use it without without the Smithsonian Institution’s express permission assuming i follow the rules listed here http://www.si.edu/copyright/

http://www.si.edu/copyright/

but is it to much to ask for a URL to be set in its place so people can at least to to the site to see what i was referencing?

the image i referenced and posted was carefully chosen because of its bearing on this particular question and how it relates to spectrum analysis and because it was taken from an educational site which the rules of this board seem to allow.

http://www.bautforum.com/about-baut/...ing-board.html

rule
8. Hotlinking
i did not realize i was violating any rules:

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-work in progress--

Hello Everyone:

After going through the posts, the one thing that I noticed is that what is normally done when there are minute quantities of a substance within the "sum total": is to apply a Fourier analysis to the signal. Given the possible ppm or ppb of trace amounts within a biotic atmosphere-- in my opinion the current commercial technology does not exist--but needs to be invented or re-searched from some current source.

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"The candle flame gutters. Its little pool of light trembles. Darkness gathers. The demons begin to stir."
---Carl Sagan

I answered in article in topic Hotlinking images.

Short form: BAUT is commercial. The Smithsonian is not 100% US government and owns and controls copying of its intellectal property with its own particular rules. And, you are mixing restrictions on .edu-site copyrighted image use with restrictions on .edu-site bandwidth use.

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Apparently the google ad links at the top of the page make this site "commercial".

Hello again,

After re-reading the "Market Watch" post, the researchers in question used the Spitzer telescope---let me illustrate by example,

There was a debate in the 1980s among chemists about the existence of poly-water in H2O--I know it sounds very silly--but consider it as analogous to Zeno's paradox...no matter how you slice it--when you have an infinitely soluble material in solution--there is always molecules present unless the "sum-total" is removed. Since we have such a disparate ratio between an-Earth / Jupiter size...the OP is in fact rendered in a way that can be hypothesized upon.

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"The candle flame gutters. Its little pool of light trembles. Darkness gathers. The demons begin to stir."
---Carl Sagan