Is math useful for clarification of an idea?
Or
Is math the only way to understand an issue in physics?

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Not this again.

For physics you need the maths Tommac. Especially for the Relativity stuff that you're interested in.

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Math is fundamental in many aspects. Math essentially leads to physics, not the other way around.

Look at General Relativity. Einstein spent many years with mathematicians before he could even write out GR. Before that came Special Relativity, based entirely on 2 simple ideas and math. Even SR wouldn't have been possible if it weren't for Maxwell, an excellent mathematician with a keen sense of discovery.

Have you done calculus to the point of 2nd order and higher calculus as well as partial derivatives? All those years of working on math leads to a simple understanding of many things.

Math is a way to create abstract, self-consistent models of reality. It's not really an issue of "does this equation describe reality" as is the question "does this equation allow us to make predictions about the future?" If it does, it's a useful tool in itself.

There's really nothing quite like math for being able to predict the future. Without it, you're back to the pre-scientific method of determining "truth", and you might as well go back to trying to use sheep's entrails to predict the orbits of the planets.

Rob

Agreed ... But you can understand some of the concepts without understanding the complicated math. Even by design I believe that Einstein avoided the math ... but Grossman tricked him into using it for GR.

I guess a better way to word the problem is ... how to approach a problem, start with the math or start with logic?

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I disagree with this. Without us trying to figure out how things work there would be no math.

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Math is to Science as Grammar is to Writing.

The boring stuff you have to know before you can get to the fun stuff.

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This is an interesting take ... basically you are saying that math allows you to extrapolate and deduce ...

However in order to do that you need to understand the problem in logic first. Or do you just think in math?

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Other examples include quantum mechanics, Fourier analysis(I'm a speaker buff, so yeah), actuarial science(insurance and so forth), statistics(this one is HUGE).

A lot of great discoveries are made when someone makes a crazy claim, someone else formulates it mathematically and makes predictions with it, and then it's tested and proven. Schrodinger wasn't proud of his now famous equation. The 'poisson' spot in diffraction was an attempt by Poisson to discredit Fresnel wave theory of light. Einstein developed a lot of the ideas used in QM, yet didn't take it seriously enough.

I don't know where you got the idea that Einstein was bad at math, or avoided it.

In reality, like a good programmer, he was excellent at taking a coherent idea and translating into equations on paper. He could do stats, as he discovered that energy levels are quantized in the search for cavity radiation. He even formulated planck's constant but didn't realize it had any meaning yet.

Not by a long shot. The popular myth of Einstein being somehow lousy at math is just that, a popular myth. He was in fact quite good at it. It was Einstein who was the driving force behind the mathematical development of GR, going to Grossman and others for help when he knew he needed new tools to develop the necessary math. Newton solved the problem by inventing calculus for himself. Einstein did not need to do that, he only needed to find the right tool already in the hands of mathematicians.

Logic & math are inseparable, at least in the context of the natural sciences. Math is the natural language of logic, so in order to understand the logic at any level beyond the most rudimentary, you must do the math.

For the most part, this too is a popular myth. You may think you "understand" an idea without the "complicated math" (which is often not really all that complicated, ust specialized). But in reality there are always key points left out or skipped over because the math, complicated or not, is still missing. This is something I have come to learn from years of trying to design talks and articles explaining those very ideas to totally non mathematical audiences. I have become quite skeptical & critical of almost all of the popular explanations I see because they are so over simplified that they just get it wrong, or get it so misleading as to make it essentially wrong.

if you can't or don't do the mathematics then you have literally no hope at all of ever really understanding general relativity, or really any other aspect of modern physics, beyond the legendary "cave man" level.

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Maths will limit your understanding of physics Tommac.

Judging by your threads, you seem to love physics; so why don't you take the time to learn some more maths? You'll probably get more out of it than any of us.

(And Grant will be relieved).

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I can't tell you how thrilled I am that this conversation is happening again. Someone needs to keep a Binary-Man style of list.

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Even for statistics ... you dont need to know math. What I mean by this is that you can understand the concepts without having to work through the detail. Like a lognormal distribution for example ... You dont need to know how to calculate the 99 percentile mark to understand that something may resemble a log normal distribution and that at some point you know that it is fairly unlikely that an event will happen.

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From Kip thornes book.

I dont have the exact quotes but it stated that he tried to resist any complex math. Also that he was lazy when it came to math. I think second chapter or there abouts

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But einstein was relatively weak in math .... his main strength lies in his ability to reason and think through a problem.

Quotes such as Imagination is more important than knowledge clearly shows which he thought was more important.

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Without maths no-one here would be able to tell Tommac what is so good about maths.

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I am sure he was above average ... but even here you hit on the point that I am hinting at. He knew what needed to be calculated and had someone else help him develop that. He didnt know the math. And would have failed the ATM section when some idiot would ask him to do "the maths". He didnt know and needed Grossman to help him fill in the blanks. In addition he did resist it for a while.

I never state that the math ( note no s ) is not important ... i just dont feel that either :
A) it is the driving force for anything of use
B) the only way to understand complex situations

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Says who?

And please don't cite that bovine excrement urban legend about him flunking out in school.

Yeah, and you can play Chopin without worrying about all those bothersome 16ths and 32nds that clutter up his pieces. Just pick out the notes you want to play. Scales? Why practice scales?

Without the math, one is and remains an amateur.

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Hmm ... I dont know ...
I believe that they are inseparable but I dont think that you need to do the math to understand the logic ... but rather than logic represents math.

To understand that one can calculate the area under a curve or the volume in funnel doesnt mean that you cant use a curve or a funnel ... or that you cant understand how a funnel works ...

I think sometimes the math just makes things harder to picture and understand ...

Yes ... I do think that if you need to figure out the exact flow of water through the funnel ... you may need to do some math. But you can hold off until you need to do that calculation

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I think this is where you're going wrong. If some "idiot" had asked him to show the maths, he would have said "you're right; I'll go, get the maths, and come back with it." Which is exactly what he did really.

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What math do you want me to know? All of it? I am holding off on learning stuff until I need to. until know I have not felt the need to bolster my mathematical knowledge.

when someone posts randomly ... "Show the maths" ... who knows what they are talking about ...

If you ask me to do a particular calculation I may try to give it a shot.

more than loving physics I am a master debater ( and in fact a cunning linguist).

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I do. He was a much better physicist/intuitive thinker than he was mathematician.

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Why did you stop asking Q&A questions and start making statements?

Please use your Q&A topics to ask questions. Thanks.

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Enough maths to understand your topic of course. And you cannot be serious about the rest of it. This thread and your GR threads are proof that "you need to", and the fact that you have so much difficulty understanding GR shows that you need to "bolster your mathematical knowledge".

I'm amazed that you can say you haven't felt the need. Why are we having this conversation then?

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I can personally tell you that you dont need to learn or practicescales or learn about or practice 16th or 32nds to play chopin. You can just focus and play it ... Sometimes it is easier to just learn the piece without thinking about it too much ... it sometimes can help you learn something but sometimes it just doesnt matter. there are many great musicians that havent been trained and learned just by loving the music.

OR you can learn to enjoy it ... maybe even get a deeper feeling of what he was trying to portray with the song that he wrote. Maybe if you closed your eyes even visualize a meaning to the music.

Sure ... but it can still be fun ...

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Would you care to cite some references or sources?

Or are references and sources as unimportant as math and as such unnecessary for understanding the basic issues?

"I make things up, therefore I am"?

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The only ones that hate an elite are those who know they will never belong to one.

Just ask on the board ... lets post a poll.

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