|
| If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|||||||
| Register | FAQ | Members List | Calendar | Mark Forums Read |
![]() |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Search this Thread | Display Modes |
|
||||
|
I received this email from Rick Tumlinson, co-founder of the Space Frontier Foundation. He is very pro-space, in the sense of getting private companies to finance it. He thinks NASA has its place, but has lost its way, and needs outside thinkers to steer America back on course.
I post this article in its entirety (with permission) with no implied endorsement or criticism. I'm just curious what people here think. I have my own opinions, but I'll wait a while before posting them, so as not to bias the conversation. Quote:
__________________
Phil Plait The Bad Astronomer http://www.badastronomy.com badastro@badastronomy.com |
|
||||
|
I'd go along with it generally. We have a NASA-industry space complex with no great motivation to make access to space cheaper, since most of the money going to space goes to NASA and the associated industries. NASA should focus more on ends - sending a probe to Mars or into orbit - and let private industry figure out how best to do it.
__________________
Everything I need to know I learned through Googling. |
|
||||
|
The only thing that bothers me with privatization of space is the ability to impose some level of regulation upon them. Once the genie is out of the bottle, its loose, and not much can stop it. Once private companies have unrestrictable access to space, there's not much a government can do to impose regulations upon them. By this I mean, environmental (space junk), occupational hazard (how many safety regs would corporations follow if there was no OSHA or local equivalent breathing down their neck?), and operational safety (why bother with upkeep if cheap access makes lofting a new whatever less expensive?).
Not casting stones at any of the current players in the field, but think a generation or two down the line. Major corporations aren't known for caring for much beyond the bottom line once something is considered a commodity. That is the risk we face if space access becomes a commodity, not a luxery or experimental pursuit.
__________________
The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas. |
|
||||
|
First impressions: Rick seems a "tad" upset with NASA, and aerospace contractors. When you need support from a group, it's probably not a good idea to characterize them as dinosaurs.
My major problem with the idea is this... Quote:
of money to make this "work", and that's why I can't get too excited about it. I just don't see this in the near (or even far) future as being anything other than a "rich man's" game. ...and that's my opinion...I hope I'm wrong... |
|
||||
|
Quote:
It would be nice if he would be right, but I just don't see it. SSO was a nice thing, but by being designed just to reach the goal of the X-Prize, it could avoid nerly everything that makes real spaceflight difficult and expensive. I see one advantage a private space transportation sector would have: Accidents wouldn't lead to such outcries as they happen when the system is operated by a governmental body. Harald
__________________
"Flying in space is risky business, but just staying on this planet is risky business too." - John Young, astronaut |
|
||||
|
Quote:
Governments might flinch at strapping a crewed capsule onto one of these things without a bible-thick book of safety certifications, but once a booster is certified as operational, there's nothing saying a private company has to do more than ensure the capsule they strap to the nose is under the mass limit. The infastructure is in place, you just have to conform your launch package to the limits of the booster it uses.
__________________
The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas. |
|
||||
|
Quote:
You're talking about "cutting corners", and that leads to accidents. Now I'm not saying that a "loss of vehicle" would lead to discontinuence of private space ventures. But lose enough people and we might start to see a lack of confidence by the "investors". Spaceflight is inherently a "risky business", and it's going to be a LONG time before it is not.
__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov |
|
||||
|
Quote:
Also, losing people is bad, BUT as long as the profit margin is there, what's to keep investors out? It doesn't necessarily need to get to the point where people die from immediately apparent causes either. The cost of lofting manned vehicles into space is likely going to be far more expensive a proposition than unmanned, so whats to prevent a company from extending manned missions to durations that aren't very good for the long term health of the crews? Its space, its an adventure, think they'll be short on volunteers? The damage done by corners cut doesn't have to be so dramatic as a violent death in a launch accident, those are bad PR, those are to be avoided. But other more subtle corners, what's to stop them from cutting those and hiding behind an army of lawyers? Cost/benefit is the core. If they can accept the risk for the sake of increased profit, don't believe there aren't companies that won't walk across that line.
__________________
The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas. |
|
||||
|
Poor safety by itself doesn't necessarily condemn a new industry; daily train wrecks in the 1800s didn't ruin the Railroad industry, and the early airline industry had more than a few planes go down (the Comet comes to mind) before they got it right.
The difference with space, however, is that for the foreseeable future it is merely entertainment, and will thus be held to safety standards more akin to amusement parks than transportation systems.
__________________
Do try not to take me too seriously. |
|
||||
|
Quote:
Government and NASA are limited by taxes and budgeting constraints, private organizations are limited in their ingenuity of creating a profit from the space industry. I would have to agree with the view that privatization of space as necessary to providing humanity with a firmer, surer stepping stone in preparation for our jump into a truly space faring culture. *** Edit to say, I believe I'd like to see this thread as a Sticky
__________________
Photons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic. |
|
|||
|
I think the privatisation of space is somewhat inevitable but no one has put as much money into space as has gone into NASA. We haven't exactly used space to its full potential with the amount of money that has gone into it, umm i wonder why #-o
Oh yeah, NASA's the one developing all the propulsion technologies. Like the VASIMR system is probably the best hope we have for efficient travel to Mars or other planets and it is also the fastest by far. The deceleration is a bit of a problem as half of the trip has to be deceleration but that could be cut down by sling shoting around the planet and decelerating to get into an orbit. This would make the trip even shorter, or heck strap a chemical rocket on to help slow it down quicker. I don't hold much promise for privatisation of space until companies start putting more long term applications into their plans. Also without a policing in space it could well develop into a privateering situation between rival companies. If a ship conveniently gets damaged and drifts off course no ones likely going to find out if there was foul play involved. |
|
||||
|
They're going to have to bring ticket prices down to considerably lower than $200,000--AND offer more by way of "entertainment" than "go up, come down, go home", before it'll ever turn into a money-making proposition.
|
|
|||
|
Quote:
|
|
||||
|
I like the gist of the email. What seems to be lacking are the details. But all things in good time I guess.
If Tumlinson would like to get going now, one idea for getting some equipment into orbit which could be used as habitats might be the shuttle external tank, once the STS gets flying again. If I recall correctly the tank only needs a slight delta V increase in order to achieve orbit. There have been studies done about how to make it habitable. These actions might be supportable through non-heavy lift boosters and their attendant spacecraft, and would act as a short cut to getting manned habitats in orbit to serve as the "anchorage and industrial port" Tumlinson talked about. As it is now, NASA throws every ET away. All it accomplished after its fuel is spent is providing the folks in the southern hemisphere with a spectacular entry light show. Re the difference between NASA and private industry, there's the drive to make a profit that's in the latter, but not in the former. As Jay pointed out either here or another BB, compared to its composition in the 1960s, today's NASA has significantly fewer engineers, and many more bureaucrats. The main goal of a bureaucrat is protecting one's territory and self-preservation, of the individuals position, the department, and the organization. This is a problem that NASA will always have. It should be decisive in evolving NASA from a space flight "company" back to its original concept as indicated in its name "National Aeronautics and Space Administration". Its role would be the primary regulator of space travel, much like the FAA, etc., but hopefully without the FAA's charter to promote air travel while attempting to regulate airlines, etc., and ensure safety, which led to conflicts of interest in the past. The principles described by Tumlinson are sound. Now let's get into the details, and start planning/executing. Speaking of executing, a quick aside to Demigrog. About the last person I'd like to see in charge of one of these space companies is Jack Welch. What he did to GE was reprehensible. His misuse of Six Sigma to ensure short term gains was unconscionable. The effect this had on the quality of GE products and the quality of the work environment at GE was nothing but negative. The only positives were for Welch and his inner circle, who departed with the most golden parachutes imaginable. His disregard for safety of GE employees and the safety of persons using GE products was arrogance personified. His books demonstrate that he continues to be proud of how he gutted the company. No Welch, nor Iacocca, Ellison, Lutz, and their ilk. We need company heads who are in favor of innovation, quality, and safety as equal in stature to profits. Companies with these priorities tend to be profitable by nature (as opposed to profitable by brute force), and typically require little if any government agency intervention. Great piece of writing by Mr. Tumlinson. I hope the responses he gets are positive, meaningful, and tangible!
__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document. |
|
|||
|
Quote:
|
|
|||
|
I dont think Humans will live/work in space until a propusion system is developed that doesnt't require reaction mass. Until then, the smallest movements in space require a huge amount logistical support. Correct me if Im wrong, but even all the nuclear plans require huge amounts of reaction mass. It is neither a financial nor willingnees problem, it is a technological problem. Currently we think the technology required is simply not physically possible.
Right now the economics are this... It costs 20 million for the Russians to put a person in orbit for a few weeks, it costs NASA about 80 million for same. Orbit is only a staging ground, it is not even an interesting destination, as there is zero possibility of living in orbit for any amount of time without said, massive overwhelming logistical operation. |
|
||||
|
Historically exploration worked best in terms of achievement when there were competing enterprises. It worked in the 16th century for ships, the 19th for rail, and it worked in the 20th century with airlines. For there to be serious competition in space exploration, and thus make significant advances, I don't see any other option than to privatize it. I do find the '10 year' prediction to be far too optimisitic but that is a layman's opinion.
A key difference between space exploration and my historical examples is that there is no concrete economic reward for developing it. The 16th century explorers were lured by trade with the Orient, trains and airlines by passenger traffic and trade. Such rewards are not really there for space exploration. Until tangible economic benefits above and beyond 'space tourism' are embraced by the private sector the drive to advance space technology will not materialize like Tumlinson hopes.
__________________
Now while I might be amused by Cthulhians, I don't necessarily distrust them to carry out the functions of government. -- JayUtah What's it like being a skeptic in the Middle East? Check out my blog. |
|
||||
|
The first thing that's going to make or break private space is profitability and dependence. Someone will have to demonstrate that there's something that can be built, found or created in space that is in some way more efficient, effective or somehow marketable back on Earth. You don't innovate for no reason (unless you're a software company), you're trying to outdo yourself and stay ahead of a curve of some kind. Space industry has to find a niche in some field that produces something that's going to last beyond the novelty of doing it in space. Once you have that unique process or resource, the rest of the support base comes with it.
Its got to be something unique, finding water and oxygen on the moon aren't going to do it, you've got more than enough of those on Earth. Platitudes like "eggs in one basket" won't cut it either. It doesn't have to be exotic, like HE3, it could be as basic as say, lunar regolith has some effect on concrete mixes that make them stronger, or cure differently in a manner beneficial to construction on Earth. Pull something like that off, then its a matter of developing the means to return massive quantities of it back home. The other challenge in space industry will always always always be the first hundred miles. The Earth/Space interface is the biggest chokepoint in the whole works, because its the most expensive hurdle to overcome. If it weren't for that, this whole business would be academic. Cripes, economic trade between the Moon and Mars, should it ever come about, will be less of a neckpain than trading anywhere in space with the Earth. Gravity, re-entry rigors, volatile launch requirements, and the 6 billion potential moving targets thereon make getting into and out of the atmosphere a major hassle. Think of the challenge of those first hundred miles this way: Once you're in Earth orbit, you're halfway to wherever you want to go. Those are the two big factors that will make or break this thing IMHO.
__________________
The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas. |
|
||||
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This basically the old socialism versus capitalism debate in a nutshell.
__________________
Do try not to take me too seriously. |
|
||||
|
Yes! =D> There have to be incentives, tax write offs, and above all "advertising!" Pretty darned good stuff.
I'd venture a little further and say that once we open space, we should allow claim staking of asteroids. Open the belt to private miners and the like. I know mars is far, and the asteroid belt farther. I know the inherent dangers of space travel. I'd gladly pay my life savings for a 1 way ticket to mars for a dead-end job. ![]() I'm not sure about you all, but that last statement got me: "...I don't want to wait any longer." It should have been done a long time ago.
__________________
Feynman >~~~~< Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt. |
|
|||
|
Quote:
Also, even with nuclear rockets, you still need reaction mass. If I understand the problem correctly this is the central reason for all the interest in solar sails and propulsion systems that shoot a beam of energy from Earths surface. Also, I repeat myself, reason people are not living/working is space yet has nothing to do with financing or willingness. It has to do with technology. People simply do not have the technology available to live/work in space in anything resembling (or even imaginable) a self sustaining way. The economics of it are really simple. It currently costs about 10x the total lifetime earning potential of a person to visit space for a couple of weeks. That fact has nothing to do with government corruption and graft. It has to do with the necissity of entering space requires the use of a skyscraper sized piece of equipment once, then throwing away. I dont care how much Mexican and Chinese slave labor you put on the task, it is still going to be expensive. Hence a pipe dream. I would venture the guess that even in the case of He3, it would cost less to put He in an existing research reactor then processed through a farm of cycletrons, then it would cost to go to the moon and bring it back. For the forseeable future (not saying a breakthrough couldnt happen any day) private industry in space is limited to communications and inteligence satelites. Maybe a fundraiser style science project. |
|
||||||
|
Quote:
Quote:
Re safety, here's one example. OSHA cited the company for 858 workplace safety violations from 1990-2001. Here's a link that documents quite a few more. Also here's one reason why I included GE's customers among those whose safety is threatened. Concerning general ethics, General Electric has been involved in so many cases of fraud that in the 1990s the Pentagon's Defense Contract Management Agency created a special investigations office specifically for the company, which indicted GE on 22 criminal counts and recovered $221.7 million. In one case, in 1992, GE entered a guilty plea to criminal and civil charges for defrauding the Pentagon in a case where money was funneled to the Israeli military. GE was fined $69 million for violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. In addition I have many professional associates who worked at GE in that time period (it was 17 years) and know what actually went on. It wasn't pretty. But running a business for short-term gains can make the books look good for a while. Quote:
Re "die on the vine", that they do. But unfortunately there's a period of inertia before that happens where the brand's reputation is what sells, political connections keep the government contracts coming in, and the profits are directed toward compensation (always the highest echelons) rather than reinvestment in the company. "Neutron" Jack, Lutz, and company were (whew!) just old-time Theory X managers disguised in trendy new costumes, like Six Sigma, etc. But like you I don't want to derail this thread. So that's all I'll post re GE and Jack. Interested parties can find plenty of well-documented information on the web. Let's get back to discussing space exploration. PS: a suggestion: please cool it with the "libel" stuff. This isn't GLP. ![]()
__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document. |
|
|||
|
Quote:
Personally, I think some sort of workable fusion powered propulsion is what we're going to need to REALLY get out there good. Perhaps some sort of nuclear (fission) reactor powered ship that uses laser assisted fusion of hydrogen pellets to create a fusion reaction inside the engine and a magnetic bottle that's opened on one in to direct the thrust out the back. Even if you're not at the break even point, you're okay since the nuclear reactor is providing the power, not the fusion reaction. |
|
|||
|
Quote:
I don't know the exact weight of a KTL-40 reactor but that doesn't completely matter while in space as it doesn't have to worry about taking off. It can't be too heavy because of its small size but i would think one of the shuttles SRB's would easily get one of my above linked craft in orbit as the two produce 71% of the thrust of the total craft. If not the Saturn V easily could as once in geostationary orbit throttle up the VASIMR and you would be travelling too fast and accelerate out of orbit. |
|
||||
|
Quote:
I do remember reading somewhere that the U.S. navy have developed nuclear reactors (albiet for submarines) that can put out the appropriate wattage to power VASIMR and also be of a reasonable size and weight to be lofted by existing heavy lift launchers like the Delta IV heavy. (correct me if I'm wrong on that one though) I have no idea how much the rest of the spacecraft would weigh but perhaps a modular design with in orbit assembly could be feasable? Just speculating really here, I for one am highly eager to see some real progress with VASIMR. I feel the project has been unduly marginalised given it's enormous potential.
__________________
God: I refuse to prove that I exist. For proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing. Man: But the Babel Fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It proves you exist and so therefore you don't. Q.E.D. |
|
|||
|
Do we currently have reactor designs that do not rely on bouyancy/convection for power generation? Will it need a rotating assembly for the reactor? I've wondered about the feasability of a Laser-Initiated Fusion-Capsule Pulse-Jet, but never arrived at any acceptable answers, except the lasers would probably need to be powered by a fission reactor.
The OP article makes some interesting points, but I'm not sure it offers any real direction. I think we could reform NASA and separate its aerospace administration from its pure science and applied science work. That might make them happy. Instead of one bureaucracy, we'd have two or three... but it could work to our advantage. Either way, we shouldn't rule out government support. Privatization will only get us so far as illustrated in this article: The Political Economy of Very Large Space Projects I think Rutan may be able to get to Low Earth Orbit eventually with some new design, but that doesn't necessarily provide impetus for anyone to follow. There's not much to do in space right now.
__________________
"Oh no no no I'm a rocket man Rocket man burning out his fuse up here alone." -- Sir Elton John J Pax |
|
|||||
|
Quote:
Also i had size requirements for the reactor that i couldn't well break and the KLT-40 fitted perfectly (well .2 meters out) so i decided on it almost straight off. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Longer answer, i picked the KLT-40 because the coolant system is pumped and the backup for pump failure is convection. The steam generator wouldn't work in space, which is why i chose it should be thermoelectric generator especially as the 'cold end' would be put in liquid hydrogen and all excess heat is radiated away from the fuel compartment. A rotating vessel would be hard to build but if we are talking about a trip to mars we would need artificial gravity to prevent bone degradation as the trips to the moon could have possibly caused serious long term problems for bone matter. But i think we should seriously build a non gravity dependant fission reactor as the best option for propulsion would be a fusion drive, except it would be way too heavy of any modern design and sustained fusion hope depends on ITER expected 2015 IIRC. |
|
||||
|
Fun space employment link:
http://www.spacejobs.com/ Quote:
What about some of the following: 1. Energy production 2. Pharmaceuticals - http://www.fda.gov/fdac/special/newdrug/spacemed.html 3. Could special smelting processes create stonger and lighter materials if done in space? ** Edited for a couple links I came across. 4. Superconductive materials http://www.space.com/missionlaunches...le_030529.html Made in Space: Space Investor's Guide http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore...x?bookid=15126 http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore...x?bookid=15126
__________________
Photons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic. |
|
||||
|
Items that provide tangible, ready-to-grab profits will be the only thing that really drives a private sector space-race. I figure that mining will be that item, which means that the Moon is the first target. All that is needed is to find a resource on the Moon that, if space travel can be made more efficient and less costly, would make acquiring that resource profitable. This in turn will drive competition to get at those resources.
Another poster mentioned He-3 but at this point in time we don't really need it. Were He-3 to become the new petroleum there would be hundreds of billions of private sector dollars funding ways to get to the Moon to acquire it, much like the spice trade drove the Age of Exploration in Europe.
__________________
Now while I might be amused by Cthulhians, I don't necessarily distrust them to carry out the functions of government. -- JayUtah What's it like being a skeptic in the Middle East? Check out my blog. |
![]() |
| Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
| Display Modes | |
|
|