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Old 26-June-2007, 12:53 PM
Platinum Rhymer Platinum Rhymer is offline
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Default Spacecraft/Rocket Questions.

I want to know more about spacecrafts, like are there engines on spacecrafts? I would figure that if they did they would probably have to be the most powerful on Earth. What different kinds of energy does get used when lifting off the rocket into space?
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Old 26-June-2007, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Platinum Rhymer View Post
I want to know more about spacecrafts, like are there engines on spacecrafts? I would figure that if they did they would probably have to be the most powerful on Earth. What different kinds of energy does get used when lifting off the rocket into space?
Do you have some more specific questions about this? It's a rather general question considering all the different spacecraft that have been made.
But;
The Saturn-V rockets were the most powerful engines ever made. You may want to peruse that if you're looking for power information.
Basically, all rocket technology uses a chemical reaction (a burn) to create the energy. There have been many different fuels used.
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Old 26-June-2007, 01:42 PM
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How about the Space Shuttle? the manned spacecraft.
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Old 26-June-2007, 01:46 PM
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How about the Space Shuttle? the manned spacecraft.
How about what aspect?
Saturn-V was manned...
I don't understand your question...
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Old 26-June-2007, 02:03 PM
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Nevermind...here is another question, what happens when the rocket gets our of the Earth's atmosphere and gravity, does it still put on the afterburners or what?

Do we have the technology now to send a rocket to lets say Pluto
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Old 26-June-2007, 02:11 PM
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Do we have the technology now to send a rocket to lets say Pluto
I googled rocket to pluto. The very first result is the New Horizons missions page.

Ya know, Platinum...you "could" use google yourself to answer your questions...just a thought.
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Old 26-June-2007, 02:12 PM
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Do we have the technology now to send a rocket to lets say Pluto
Yes
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Old 26-June-2007, 02:15 PM
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Nevermind...here is another question, what happens when the rocket gets our of the Earth's atmosphere and gravity, does it still put on the afterburners or what?

Do we have the technology now to send a rocket to lets say Pluto
The fuel has it's own oxidizer, either part of the fuel, or part of the burn (with an oxygen tank to mix with it).
Therefore, no air from the atmosphere is needed.
The rocket does not "get out of our gravity". It just goes fast enough against gravity that it's neutralized (free fall). And since there is nothing slowing you down in space, it's best to get up to speed as quickly as possible.
New horizons is on it's way to Pluto...
I suggest you do some of your own research. It's fairly clear that you need a little more education on the subject than a Q&A can provide. I know that I tend to learn a lot more this way, because I always discover related topics that make things a lot more clear.
Here's a start on orbital mechanics.
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Old 26-June-2007, 02:16 PM
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RAF beat me on that...

Remember the Pioneers and Voyagers too.
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Old 26-June-2007, 02:22 PM
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The space shuttle uses 2 solid rocket boosters and 3 main engines to get into orbit. The main engines use liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen. Once in space the orbiter maneuvers with 44 thrusters and 2 larger OMS engines. These engines are powered by mono-methyl hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide which are hypergolic meaning they ignite on contact requiring no ignition system
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Old 26-June-2007, 02:32 PM
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Considering power of a rocket engine (or jet engine or other reaction engine), it isn't really relevant to express that in horsepower. It gives a huge number, sure, but simply stating thrust is more relevant as (unless I'm mistaken) you can't really compare these HP's with the HP's of say a car engine.

btw also the turbopumps feeding the rocket engines are enormously powerful, and one of the difficult parts in designing and building a working rocket engine. Jut ask the N-1 rocket .
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Old 26-June-2007, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Platinum Rhymer View Post
I want to know more about spacecrafts, like are there engines on spacecrafts? I would figure that if they did they would probably have to be the most powerful on Earth. What different kinds of energy does get used when lifting off the rocket into space?
Please give my web page a look, it should give you a good introduction to the subject and answer many of your questions:

Rocket & Space Technology

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Old 26-June-2007, 07:46 PM
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If your website is as good as some of your general rocket info in your replies, it is a good start indeed .
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Old 26-June-2007, 08:17 PM
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wow, that is a great website. kudos to you Bob.
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Old 26-June-2007, 09:51 PM
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Thank, guys.

I wish I had time to do more with it, but job and home responsibilities always seem to get in the way. I have an outline of a bunch of sections I want to add but I seem to be able to get only about one done a year. By the time I finally consider the site complete I'll probably have spent 20 years working on it. I suppose that's what makes it a good hobby; there is always more to learn and do.
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Old 27-June-2007, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
Ya know, Platinum...you "could" use google yourself to answer your questions...just a thought.
Not just google, either. Try going to your public library, and find a book on rockets. They're bound to have them. You'll find a great amount of interesting knowledge.

And if you're an interested kid, why not get an Estes rocket? Simple, but it's the same principle. Plus they're really cool to watch, and not that expensive.
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Old 27-June-2007, 09:17 AM
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I've checked on ESTEC rockets, and they're in the two hundred million dollar range. Oh, Estessss. My bad.
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Old 28-June-2007, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
Do you have some more specific questions about this? It's a rather general question considering all the different spacecraft that have been made.
But;
The Saturn-V rockets were the most powerful engines ever made. You may want to peruse that if you're looking for power information.
Basically, all rocket technology uses a chemical reaction (a burn) to create the energy. There have been many different fuels used.
Actually, they were the most powerful liquid fueled engines ever made. They put out 1.5 million pounds of thrust each. The Shuttle SRB's are the highest thrust rocket engines ever, at 2.8 million pounds of thrust each.
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Old 28-June-2007, 05:13 PM
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Actually, they were the most powerful liquid fueled engines ever made. They put out 1.5 million pounds of thrust each. The Shuttle SRB's are the highest thrust rocket engines ever, at 2.8 million pounds of thrust each.
An important distinction...Thanks for the correction.
I may have heard it with some technical semantic with the word motor or something that doesn't apply to solid rockets.
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Old 28-June-2007, 05:27 PM
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Possibly...

I will say this - IMO, they are both incredible achievements, and to see the nozzle of an F1 is an amazing sight (as is the entire saturn V). The SRB's are inherently simpler, but there's still a lot of work that went into making the thrust curve exactly as needed - it isn't a simple matter like throttling a liquid.

(on a side note, this is an amazing site to see some simulations of large solid rocket motors, including the Shuttle SRB's)
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Old 28-June-2007, 07:21 PM
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The SRB's are the most advanced candles in the world.
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Old 28-June-2007, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
An important distinction...Thanks for the correction.
I may have heard it with some technical semantic with the word motor or something that doesn't apply to solid rockets.
Although it is not a hard and fast rule, generally...

Engine = liquid propellant
Motor = solid propellant
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Old 28-June-2007, 10:34 PM
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The SRB's are the most advanced candles in the world.
When did they start including oxidizer with candles?

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Old 29-June-2007, 12:51 PM
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The Saturn V had many different types of rocket engines, ranging from the Rockedyne F-1 Kerosene/LOX engines to the solid propellant ullage and retrorocket motors on the upper stages. Specifically you are meaning the F-1 engines which were installed in a five engine cluster at the base of the first stage. Total thrust was 7.5 million pounds.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
Do you have some more specific questions about this? It's a rather general question considering all the different spacecraft that have been made.
But;
The Saturn-V rockets were the most powerful engines ever made. You may want to peruse that if you're looking for power information.
Basically, all rocket technology uses a chemical reaction (a burn) to create the energy. There have been many different fuels used.
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Old 29-June-2007, 01:50 PM
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When did they start including oxidizer with candles?

That's what makes them so advanced.
SRB > flare > candle
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Old 29-June-2007, 07:18 PM
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Platinum Rhymer, are you planning to return to this thread? You started it and yet you seem not to be much of a participant. Working on the premise that you are paying attention, I will try to answer some of your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Platinum Rhymer View Post
I want to know more about spacecrafts, like are there engines on spacecrafts?
When you use the word “spacecraft” I assume you are talking about the vehicle that is put into space and not the rocket that launched it. Your questions seem to wander back and forth between spacecraft and launch vehicles, thus I’m not sure what it is you are looking for. I define the terms as follows:

Spacecraft - A piloted or unpiloted vehicle designed for travel in space.

Launch Vehicle - A rocket used to launch a satellite or spacecraft into orbit.

Obviously there are engines on launch vehicles since they must power their payload into orbit. Most spacecraft have some combination of engines as well depending on the mission they are designed to perform.

Virtually all satellites and spacecraft have some means of attitude control. Attitude refers to the orientation of the vehicle, which is important for aiming instruments and engines, etc. In some cases attitude is controlled by non-propulsive means, such as reaction wheels, but more often there is some form of three-axis control (pitch, yaw, and roll) using small engines called thrusters. The thrusters may be cold gas type (e.g. nitrogen), monopropellant type (e.g. hydrazine), or bipropellant type (e.g. monomethyl hydrazine [MMH] and nitrogen tetroxide [N2O4]).

In addition to attitude control, some spacecraft have an engine(s) for performing a variety of maneuvers. For instance, a manned vehicle may need an engine to alter its orbit and maneuver to a rendezvous with another space vehicle. An interplanetary spacecraft has an engine for mid-course corrections and to provide the decrease in velocity required to enter orbit around its target planet. A geostationary satellite may have an engine to perform the maneuver needed to settle into its final geostationary orbit.

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Originally Posted by Platinum Rhymer View Post
I would figure that if they did they would probably have to be the most powerful on Earth.
Are you now talking about spacecraft or launch vehicles?

Launch vehicles certainly need powerful engines to lift the full weight of the rocket, propellant, and payload; however the engines don’t necessarily have to be the most powerful available. It all depends on how big the fully assembled rocket is. The engines have to powerful enough to lift the rocket, but you don’t want to oversize them or else the acceleration loads will be too great. There is a balancing act that must be performed to determine the right sized engine for the specific application. Launch vehicles come in all sorts of sizes for launching a wide range of payloads.

Spacecraft, on the other hand, most certainly do not need the most powerful engines. Attitude control thrusters are very small, and most maneuvering engines are of fairly low thrust. It does not take an especially powerful engine to maneuver a spacecraft around once it is in space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Platinum Rhymer View Post
What different kinds of energy does get used when lifting off the rocket into space?
The chemical energy stored within the propellant is released as thermal energy which is then converted to kinetic energy, however I have a feeling this isn’t the answer you were looking for. If your intention is otherwise, please clarify.

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How about the Space Shuttle? the manned spacecraft.
The winged part of the Space Shuttle is called the Orbiter. It is both a spacecraft and part of the launch vehicle. The three large engines on the aft end of the Orbiter, called the Space Shuttle Main Engines (SSME), are used only during launch and are fed liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen propellant from the large External Tank (ET). The SSME provide a thrust of 470,000 pounds each in a vacuum. Once the Orbiter is in space, the SSME are no longer used until the next time the Shuttle is launched.

The Space Shuttle is also equipped with two smaller engines that are part of the Orbital Maneuvering System (OMS). The OMS engines are also on the aft end of the Orbiter, burn MMH and N2O4, and have a thrust of 6,000 pounds each. The Orbiter’s Reaction Control System (RCS) consists of 38 each 870-pound thrusters and six 24-pound thrusters. These thrusters are scattered about at both the forward and aft ends. The larger thrusters are for coarse attitude control while the smaller ones are for fine attitude control. The very small thrusters are sometimes called verniers.

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Originally Posted by Platinum Rhymer View Post
...here is another question, what happens when the rocket gets our of the Earth's atmosphere and gravity, does it still put on the afterburners or what?
A spacecraft does not need to continually thrust as is often depicted in science fiction movies and television. Traveling in space is simply a matter of transferring between orbits of different sizes and shapes until you get to where you want to go. The orbit transfers require engine burns of short duration, but then the spacecraft just coasts along the new trajectory until it reaches the next transfer point. Most transfers can be performed with a fairly small engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Platinum Rhymer View Post
Do we have the technology now to send a rocket to lets say Pluto
Yes … see New Horizons.
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Old 30-June-2007, 02:14 AM
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Nice explanation Bob. I certainly learned a few things

A follow-on question, though.
You wrote:
The thrusters may be cold gas type (e.g. nitrogen), monopropellant type (e.g. hydrazine), or bipropellant type (e.g. monomethyl hydrazine [MMH] and nitrogen tetroxide [N2O4]).

Does a monopropellent such as hydrazine "burn" to generate more energy than a cold-gas thruster? If so, what starts the "burning?" Is the stuff just explosive below a certain pressure, or is there a spark generator or similar device to start the process?
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Old 30-June-2007, 03:53 AM
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Does a monopropellent such as hydrazine "burn" to generate more energy than a cold-gas thruster? If so, what starts the "burning?" Is the stuff just explosive below a certain pressure, or is there a spark generator or similar device to start the process?
Although hydrazine (N2H4) burns when combined with an oxidizer, in a monopropellant application it "decomposes" when brought in contact with a catalyst. The resulting high-temperature gases (nitrogen, hydrogen and ammonia) are then accelerated through the nozzle. This type of engine is called, appropriately, a catalytic decomposition engine. The performance is much better than cold gas but not as good as bipropellant engines -- hydrazine decomposes at a temperature of about 1,200o K while bipropellants burn upwards of 3,000o K.

The following is the description of monopropellant engines from my Web page:

Quote:
Monopropellant Engines

By far the most widely used type of propulsion for spacecraft attitude and velocity control is monopropellant hydrazine. Its excellent handling characteristics, relative stability under normal storage conditions, and clean decomposition products have made it the standard. The general sequence of operations in a hydrazine thruster is:
  • When the attitude control system signals for thruster operation, an electric solenoid valve opens allowing hydrazine to flow. The action may be pulsed (as short as 5 ms) or long duration (steady state).
  • The pressure in the propellant tank forces liquid hydrazine into the injector. It enters as a spray into the thrust chamber and contacts the catalyst beds.
  • The catalyst bed consists of alumina pellets impregnated with iridium. Incoming hydrazine heats to its vaporizing point by contact with the catalyst bed and with the hot gases leaving the catalyst particles. The temperature of the hydrazine rises to a point where the rate of its decomposition becomes so high that the chemical reactions are self-sustaining.
  • By controlling the flow variables and the geometry of the catalyst chamber, a designer can tailor the proportion of chemical products, the exhaust temperature, the molecular weight, and thus the enthalpy for a given application. For a thruster application where specific impulse is paramount, the designer attempts to provide 30-40% ammonia dissociation, which is about the lowest percentage that can be maintained reliably. For gas-generator application, where lower temperature gases are usually desired, the designer provides for higher levels of ammonia dissociation.
  • Finally, in a space thruster, the hydrazine decomposition products leave the catalyst bed and exit from the chamber through a high expansion ratio exhaust nozzle to produce thrust.
Monopropellant hydrazine thrusters typically produce a specific impulse of about 230 to 240 s. Another suitable propellant for catalytic decomposition engines is hydrogen peroxide, however the performance - about 150 s specific impulse - is considerably lower than that obtained with hydrazine.

Monopropellant systems have successfully provided orbit maintenance and attitude control functions, but lack the performance to provide weight-efficient large delta-V maneuvers required for orbit insertion. Bipropellant systems are attractive because they can provide all three functions with one higher performance system, but they are more complex than the common solid rocket and monopropellant combined systems. A third alternative are dual mode systems. These systems are hybrid designs that use hydrazine both as a fuel for high performance bipropellant engines and as a monopropellant with conventional low-thrust catalytic thrusters. The hydrazine is fed to both the bipropellant engines and the monopropellant thrusters from a common fuel tank.

Cold gas propulsion is just a controlled, pressurized gas source and a nozzle. It represents the simplest form of rocket engine. Cold gas has many applications where simplicity and/or the need to avoid hot gases are more important than high performance. The Manned Maneuvering Unit used by astronauts is an example of such a system.


SOURCE: Space Mission Analysis and Design, 2nd Ed.; Wiley J. Larson & James R. Wertz (editors), Microcosm Inc., 1992.
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Old 30-June-2007, 04:50 AM
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Nitrous Oxide is another usable monopropellant IIRC, with a potential Isp of about 170 seconds...
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Old 30-June-2007, 07:27 AM
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Default Re: Spacecraft/Rocket Questions.

One thing I've always wondered about. I've never had much to do with the design and manufacture of large solid fuel rockets. Looks like there are some experts in that field on this thread.

Check out this photo of an Honest John launch.

Note how the exhaust is grayish black until it's well beyond the nozzle and then brightens into a white plume. What's the reason for this? I would expect the exhaust to be uniform since the combustion is happening in the chamber, not aft of the nozzle. Is this perhaps a peculiarity of the fuel/oxidizer blend being used? Interaction with atmospheric water vapor?
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