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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 26-March-2008, 09:05 PM
Larry Jacks Larry Jacks is offline
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While no expert (by any means) on the topic, that doesn't appear to make any sense. A gravitational slingshot maneuver is, IIRC, designed in such a way as to put the vehicle on the correct trajectory for the next leg of the journey. I may be wrong but I don't see how the planet's rotation would make any difference. Last night, I watched a program that talked a great deal about the Voyager missions. One of the missions (Voyager 2) flew past Jupiter and Saturn on to Uranus and Neptune. Now, Uranus's rotation is steeply inclined to the plane of the ecliptic (97.86 degrees). Voyager 2 had to slingshot around Uranus correctly to fly on to Neptune. If the planet's rotation seriously affected the slingshot maneuver, it seems unlikely they could've aligned the trajectory correctly. Both planets' orbits are almost inline with the plane of the ecliptic (less than 2 degrees of inclination) so it seems likely to me that Voyager had to fly a trajectory pretty close to the plane to reach the next planet. Uranus's unusual rotation would - it seems to me - have thrown the spacecraft north or south of the ecliptic if rotation was a factor. I don't think I'm explaining this well.

Here's a link to a NASA Gravity Assist Primer. I just skimmed it but I didn't see any reference to the planet rotating on its axis, just a reference to the planet's rotation around the Sun. There a link on the page to a 1.5 hour (in 4 parts) video on Trajectory Design and Gravity Assist. I don't have time to watch it now but it might be interesting.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 26-March-2008, 09:12 PM
skrap1r0n skrap1r0n is offline
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I honestly have no idea. I will watch those video's tomorrow. If you have 30 minutes to spare, might want to listen to the Mercury Episode of Astronomy cast. They touched a bit on this talking about gravity braking. I looked up the transcript for the show, this is what they had to say:

Quote:
Fraser: I guess it's very different from the spacecraft they send to mars. When they go to Mars, they can use the atmosphere to aerodynamically break their orbit. I know the mars spacecraft come through the atmosphere several times, skimming the top of the atmosphere slowing themselves down a little bit more until they're in whatever orbit they want to be in.

With Mercury, that non-atmosphere isn't going to participate, so they've got to be doing it entirely with rockets.

Pamela: They actually do it almost entirely with gravity, that's one of the cool things.

A better way to think of it is when we send things out to Jupiter and Saturn, we often use some of the inner planets to give gravity boosts. We'll send things into an orbit where they go once around the Sun and then they start to catch up on Earth. As they catch up on Earth, its gravity pulls them in and they eventually fly past Earth. As they fly past, the Earth tries to slow them down, but Earth and this object are moving in the same direction, so the amount of push we can give an object heading out toward the outer solar system, that's going in the same direction of orbit we're going in, is a lot more than the pull we give it as it goes past us.

This is called gravity-assist. It's away to speed things up by allowing the Earth's gravity to pull in the direction we're all orbiting.

If you try going around the Sun in the opposite direction, such that it comes around the Sun and is headed into a head-on collision with the Earth, the planet's gravity will still pull it toward the Earth, but as it starts to go past the Earth, because we're now moving in the other direction, we slow the object down more than we speed it up.

So you can use gravity-assist to slow things down if you try and go against the flow of orbits, or to speed things up if you go in the flow of the orbit.

Fraser: So that's what Messenger's going to do: orbit in the "wrong" direction and use that gravity to actually slow it down until it can put itself into orbit.

Pamela: Exactly, so they're gradually breaking themselves (in this case using Venus and Earth to break themselves) to get to Mercury. They're going to have to go past Mercury a couple of times before they settle into a nice orbit and then just image, image, image that entire planet.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 26-March-2008, 09:26 PM
Larry Jacks Larry Jacks is offline
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As they fly past, the Earth tries to slow them down, but Earth and this object are moving in the same direction, so the amount of push we can give an object heading out toward the outer solar system, that's going in the same direction of orbit we're going in, is a lot more than the pull we give it as it goes past us.

I'm pretty sure that the direction they're talking about is the planet's and spacecraft's motion around the sun, not the planet's rotation around its axis.
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Old 26-March-2008, 09:34 PM
skrap1r0n skrap1r0n is offline
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Right, I wasn't sure until I looked it up, at any rate, this makes L4 almost useless if you wanted to use earth for gravity assist, unless you went around the sun first.
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Old 26-March-2008, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trocisp View Post
One of many types of designs, yes. However, I'm not a fan of this. I prefer a light source where you can alter the day-night cycle. Rather than being stuck with whatever the stations spin/orbit/eclipse/shadow cylce goes around.
Er, you can alter the day/night cycle. Just adjust the slats. Like any window.

And unless you put your station in a really poorly-planned orbit, your sunlight should be constant.
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Old 26-March-2008, 10:58 PM
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L4 and L5 are dusty places full of micrometeoroids, and they're days from either Earth or the Moon. To start with, better have something closer to home. Build up in stages to the larger structures and more permanent, more self-sufficient settlements.
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Old 27-March-2008, 06:30 PM
neilzero neilzero is offline
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Hi IsaacKuo, post 2: I agree, except future technology may be able to approximate miminal mass shielding at 10 or 20% of the mass based shielding, besides serving other functions. The Magsail calculations for a 50 kilometer super conducting loop used a 100megawatt nuclear power plant to charge the loop in two days, if I recal correctly. The 100 megawatts would be useful for other purposes between rare days it would be needed to charge the super conducting loop. Some energy is needed continously to reliquify oxygen. The loop can also perform minor station keeping and attitude adjustment for the colony. A better mid temperature superconductor may be available soon. Even at present, liquid oxygen could be used to cool the 50 kilometer mag sail loop. A large reserve of liquid oxygen would be a valuable commodity for the colony. That large a loop can likely direct nearly all the solar wind away from all of the colony and produce a small volume of reduced galactic cosmic rays. Colonists will likely have to accept slightly reduced life expectancy due to radiation exposure. Neil
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Old 27-March-2008, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilzero View Post
Hi IsaacKuo, post 2: I agree, except future technology may be able to approximate miminal mass shielding at 10 or 20% of the mass based shielding, besides serving other functions. The Magsail calculations for a 50 kilometer super conducting loop used a 100megawatt nuclear power plant to charge the loop in two days, if I recal correctly. The 100 megawatts would be useful for other purposes between rare days it would be needed to charge the super conducting loop. Some energy is needed continously to reliquify oxygen. The loop can also perform minor station keeping and attitude adjustment for the colony. A better mid temperature superconductor may be available soon. Even at present, liquid oxygen could be used to cool the 50 kilometer mag sail loop. A large reserve of liquid oxygen would be a valuable commodity for the colony. That large a loop can likely direct nearly all the solar wind away from all of the colony and produce a small volume of reduced galactic cosmic rays. Colonists will likely have to accept slightly reduced life expectancy due to radiation exposure. Neil
The question isn't just "can it be done", but rather "can it be done more cheaply and effectively than using mass?"
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