Chatroom
 

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > Space and Astronomy > Space Exploration
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

   

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 22-May-2008, 10:28 AM
Tuckerfan's Avatar
Tuckerfan Tuckerfan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Gallatin, TN
Posts: 1,442
Send a message via AIM to Tuckerfan Send a message via MSN to Tuckerfan
Default NASA's "Low Cost" Heat Shield

As described here:
Quote:
The 2007 NASA Government Invention of the Year is a heat shield material slightly more dense than balsa wood that is designed to protect spacecraft during their fiery re-entry into Earth's atmosphere.

The Lightweight Ceramic Ablator material (LCA) is a low-density material that weighs one-fifth as much as conventional heat shields, but can withstand temperatures up to 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit, according to project engineers at NASA's Ames Research Center at Moffett Field, Calif. The material has a foundation made of fibers coated with a thin layer of organic polymeric resin. The resin, traditionally used as a bonding agent, creates a light, durable, heat-resistant shield.
Pretty cool, but I'm wondering how NASA defines "low cost." Technically, the shuttle's tiles could be considered "low cost" since at $10K a square foot, they're cheaper than that used on the Apollo capsules which came in at $30K a square foot.
__________________
We want our children to go to the planets. Burt Rutan 6/21/04
Tuckers! Science! Automotive Oddities! Boycott Trek XI! Building my hot rod with the help of the intarwebs Those who would delay scientific progress for a little temporary prosperity shall have neither.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 22-May-2008, 11:07 AM
JonClarke JonClarke is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,087
Default

It says "low-density", not "low-cost"!

Jon
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 22-May-2008, 12:24 PM
Nicolas's Avatar
Nicolas Nicolas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgium
Posts: 11,228
Default

Is this meant as a reusable or use-once-burn-up heat shield?

"low cost" indeed isn't mentioned anywhere, but every kg less in heat shield is a kg extra in payload capacity, which means that lightweight materials kind of pay for themselves. Or in case of Orion, help staying below the maximum weight.
__________________
To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 22-May-2008, 12:51 PM
NEOWatcher's Avatar
NEOWatcher NEOWatcher is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: the E(e)rie coast
Posts: 7,256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
Is this meant as a reusable or use-once-burn-up heat shield?
The answer's in the name.
Ok, maybe that doesn't mean it's not reusable, but I would think that in this kind of application, they would use just enough for protection of single use. I guess it depends on what it takes to remove and reapply.
__________________
Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 22-May-2008, 05:11 PM
samkent samkent is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 332
Default

Reusable and low cost like...... STS?
Ouch did I realy say that?
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 22-May-2008, 05:24 PM
cjl's Avatar
cjl cjl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: University of Colorado - Boulder
Posts: 2,278
Default

Heh.

This one's ablative though, so it isn't really reusable and should be much better for both low cost and resilience than something like the RCC panels on the shuttle.
__________________
WANTED:

Schroedinger's Cat

Dead And Alive
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 22-May-2008, 06:51 PM
mugaliens's Avatar
mugaliens mugaliens is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 6,974
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckerfan View Post
As described here:
Pretty cool, but I'm wondering how NASA defines "low cost." Technically, the shuttle's tiles could be considered "low cost" since at $10K a square foot, they're cheaper than that used on the Apollo capsules which came in at $30K a square foot.
Yeah, I don't know. Since you didn't mention cost per square foot for the proposed system, there's not much of a comparison value. Pure, fine, carbon fiber ballute, tightly bound, might be a LOT cheaper. 10 square feet of pure carbon fiber windboard (20 square feet, counting top and bottom) goes for around $3,000, which is just $150 per square foot.

Sounds like a bargain!
__________________
I am Mugs, of the Alien clan of Usa, Nordamerica, a Terran, of Sol.

Perception isn't reality. It's merely an abstraction thereof, and quite often not a very good one at that.

I am human. Fully human.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 22-May-2008, 07:07 PM
mugaliens's Avatar
mugaliens mugaliens is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 6,974
Default

Here's an idea... How about a self-inflatable ballute such as the ones used for years to retard the parabola of free-fall bombs?

For re-entry, you could have two sections. The first section would inflate from front scoops, thereby protecting the entire re-entry vessel, while the back would inflate simply to maintain stability.

There would be a very small direct contact area up front which could easily be insulated using space-shuttle-like tiles. The remainder of the area would largely be insulated by air space between the outer inflated ballute and the inner ballute surface, which would only require minimal, and inexpensive insulation between it and the re-entry vehicle's surface.

Scoops redesigned as required for re-entry velocities, mach effects, etc., everything made of hexagonal woven carbon-fiber cloth with rounded, multilayered leading edges, etc....

Can it be done?

Yes.

Cheaply?

Certainly a lot cheaper than $10 per square foot...

When the vehicle is slowed to a thicker atmospheric, sub-mach terminal velocity, the design can be "unzipped," allowing it to stream to the stern while normal parachutes continue to slow descent and bring home the baby.

Heck, I can think of three ways to modify the ballistics throughout reentry, including using what we called "ring-slot" chutes whereby during the first phase, high-level to low level, the chute's ability to retard the fall was limited by a ring which kept the chute from full inflation. This allows for more accurate fall, but also for much greater descent velocity.

The ballutes could have a progressive "ring-slot" design which would allow for progressively greater air pressures and slow terminal velocities until the main chute's deploy for final touchdown/splashdown. If you really want to reuse the body, build it in a blended wing design (I think we've got all the six-million-dollar-man kinks worked out) and use the ballutes for re-entry before transitioning to glider mode.
__________________
I am Mugs, of the Alien clan of Usa, Nordamerica, a Terran, of Sol.

Perception isn't reality. It's merely an abstraction thereof, and quite often not a very good one at that.

I am human. Fully human.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 23-May-2008, 10:13 AM
Tuckerfan's Avatar
Tuckerfan Tuckerfan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Gallatin, TN
Posts: 1,442
Send a message via AIM to Tuckerfan Send a message via MSN to Tuckerfan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonClarke View Post
It says "low-density", not "low-cost"!

Jon
That article does, but I've seen others (which I can't find) that say it's less expensive than that used on the shuttle. They don't give a price, either, which is why I posted this piece. I'd be interested to see what the drop is.
__________________
We want our children to go to the planets. Burt Rutan 6/21/04
Tuckers! Science! Automotive Oddities! Boycott Trek XI! Building my hot rod with the help of the intarwebs Those who would delay scientific progress for a little temporary prosperity shall have neither.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 23-May-2008, 11:32 AM
Nicolas's Avatar
Nicolas Nicolas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgium
Posts: 11,228
Default

Oh, ablative indeed, that doesn't sound like reusable. And I doubt they'd put on tenfold of what they need, so it lasts the 10 times an Orion can be reused.

Oh well, nothing wrong with ablative heat shields as a concept.
__________________
To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 26-May-2008, 12:32 AM
mike alexander's Avatar
mike alexander mike alexander is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: McMinnville, Oregon
Posts: 6,619
Default

The point of a low-density heat shield of any design would, I think, mean that less mass for shield means more mass for cargo.
__________________
The Devil offered me power. I told him I preferred aperture.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Opportunity Finds its Heat Shield Fraser Universe Today Story Comments 0 12-September-2005 01:24 AM
Potential Threat to the Huygen Mission Jerry Against the Mainstream 1952 01-May-2005 04:33 AM
Ice freezing...does it give off heat? starwiz Astronomy 29 02-February-2004 12:04 PM
Free to choose? anu Conspiracy Theories 11 04-December-2002 10:59 PM
Apollo 13 Hoax? SAMU Conspiracy Theories 209 24-November-2001 04:04 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.0.0
©  2006 Bad Astronomy and Universe Today