When people discover the natural distribution of perchlorate in food stuffs is higer than safety guidelines some people say "This is a contamination issue". In my experience these guidelines are often drawn up based on lab studies without reference to what happens in the real world my reaction usually is "There may be something wrong with the guidelines".

Jon

Aviation Week: Phoenix Data More Negative On Potential For Life, by Craig Covault:

===

No link to Aviation Week is in this list:
NASA Phoenix Mission
University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission
University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission: Lander Gallery
JPL Phoenix Mission News
NASA Phoenix Twitter Feed
NASA Phoenix Multimedia
CSA Phoenix Mars Mission
Planetary Society: Phoenix Mission
Planetary Society: Phoenix Non-SSI Raw Images
Planetary Society: Phoenix Sol-By-Sol Summary
Planetary Society: Weblog
Emily Lakdawalla Ustream video chat (Wednesdays)
Texas A&M University Phoenix SSI Raw Images Directory
Unmanned Spaceflight Forum: Phoenix 2007/8
Google Mars landing site
NASA TV (or NASA TV Yahoo! source or high-resolution)
NASA TV Media Channel

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Naturally, some bacteria are into perchlorate -- on Earth.

Berkeley Science Review: Natural Solutions - Organic answers to toxic questions

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Ahh, good, I was just coming around to post something to this effect. It wouldn't do to dash people's hopes too severely.

Among them, is what appears to be some interest in that long-ago opened TEGA oven, #5 I think, with the 2 stuck doors.


I wonder if they are thinking about giving it a shot with a sample from one of the two new trenches. Or, is that scoop really above TEGA #0 or #1, maybe lining up a future delivery?

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Thanks for that. I had speculated that some unusual reactions seen by the Viking life experiments might be due to these microbes that can metabolize chlorates and perchlorates:

22-January-2005, 05:40 PM
Possibilities for life on Mars - a surprising new microbe.
RGClark
Senior Member
Possibilities for life on Mars - a surprising new microbe.


Bob Clark

Oh darn. Yes echo's of Viking. But At pH 8 + the perchlorates are present as salts. I know perchloric acid is rough on the fingers but is the same true of the neutralized form? Is there any info on the concentration? Why is this so negative for biology?

Sol 70 Raw Images began arriving about 90 minutes ago.

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They don't even know for sure if there are perchlorates yet, so concentrations must be far from known. They have contradictory data on different instruments on different samples. Further if it's there, it may not be naturally occurring, but brought as contamination by Phoenix.

Here's what the US Centers for Disease Control has for toxic effects: ToxFAQs for Perchlorates

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BBC News: Science: Phoenix diary: Mission to Mars, by Dr. Tom Pike, has a new entry, 1 August, about the trials of getting the MECA Atomic Force Microscope to work.

But, Phoenix got a budget extension to at least September 30.

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About (non)measurements of perchlorate and the (non)briefing of the White House Science Advisor about (non)provocative results...

Teleconference, at NASA News Audio Live Streaming:
Tuesday, August 5, 1100 PDT
Tuesday, August 5, 1400 EDT
Tuesday, August 5, 1800 UTC

Direct link: Real Audio live stream of August 5 teleconference

10 minutes to start of teleconference

Edit: Began at 4 minutes past the hour.

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(Edit: Audio replay available at: NASA Phoenix Media Telecon - August 5)

Host Dwayne Brown

Set stage about rumors and speculation. This will set the record straight. Not as well-reviewed and validated as we'd like. Maybe provide an understanding of how science is done. This is earlier than planned.

Links, images, look for press release images:
http://www.nasa.gov/phoenix
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu

Panel:
Mike Meyer
Peter Smith, Lead
Michael Hecht, MECA
William Boynton, TEGA

===

Mike Meyer:
Instrument results have not been resolved. Need more measurements and peer review. Announcing a nonannouncement: more time is needed.

Promise: findings will be publicized widely once confirmed.

Peter Smith:
Break with scientific tradition because of extreme interest. Rather than rampant speculation from Web, a look inside the team.

Outlines traditional steps. Steps haven't taken place. Still hypothesizing.

Think they've detected perchlorates... (and audio feed died)

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Peter Smith, continues

(Terrible audio)
Perchlorate in itself neither good nor bad for habitability.

Describes function of MECA and TEGA. Partway through process. Must be sure we didn't introduce. Propulsion experts are studying, perhaps 3rd stage rocket engine fumes migrated.

Next try reproduce signatures with instrument twins on Earth. Can't compare two instruments and is high priority for next TEGA sample, for perchlorate.

Michael Hecht

Categorical denial of involvement in trade of baseball's Manny Ramirez from Boston Red Sox to LA Dodgers!

Describes MECA, focus on chemistry, the WCL, Wet Chemistry Lab. Look at images on Web.

First sample gave big perchlorate sensor, so we assumed it was malfunctioning. But, convinced sensor working and reproduced it in lab.

Second sample had similar large response for perchlorate. Eliminated some possibilities. Unusual finding so must entertain unusual explanations. Must determine it consistent with other results (like TEGA).

Why excitement? It may bear on how things work on Mars (if sample is representative of Mars). They don't know what perchlorate (example magnesium perchlorate) it is. This could keep a lot of graduate students busy for a long time.

Boynton next

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Bill Boyton

Described TEGA measurements. Didn't look for perchlorate because it wasn't expected. Changed programming and on most recent sample saw chlorine. Didn't see it earlier. Could be the type of perchlorate; it could be the location of sample.

Peter Smith

Doesn't preclude life on Mars and might even serve as energy source. Be patient. We are still measuring.

Q&A

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Q&A

Craig Covault: Said initially soil would support life [asparagus]. Were you aware of perchlorates then and do you wish you had stated it differently? What we said fit with what we knew for sure. No regrets.

Craig Covault: Was there debate then? No. We debated about specific pH number. Not on content of what we released.

Can instruments identify type of perchlorate salt? Hecht: I don't know.
Boynton: specified what TEGA may "smell" to determine type. Hecht: Possible not just one type.

Not good nor bad for life? Might it be Atacama-desert-like? Is it a "life-killer"? First studies mischaracterized lifelessness of Atacama (as perhaps a model of Mars). Later found microbes that can live in Atacama. In spite of perchlorate or do they feed off it? Can be either/or. Next? More measurement. Get sample for TEGA from where MECA saw perchlorate and then look for it and will probably see confirmation.

What's it been like on the inside watching rumor grow? Peter Smith: perchlorate caught me by surprise. It's fascinating when I researched into it. And (bad audio...)

We're happy. This isn't the way we'd prefer to announce perchlorate measurements. We're happy to have people involved, and welcome them looking into our project.

I'm baffled. Significance pro or con to habitability? Toxic or not? And, how to generalize Phoenix results to Mars? Kounaves: interesting. Large number of plants that concentrate perchlorate. Some bacteria metabolize it. It could be compared to nitrate. It's not lethal like sulfuric acid. Mostly benign. Hecht: For generalization: Compare with other missions past and future. Know we see small particles, and wind carries particles globally. But, for instance, perchlorate might be local.

Difference if perchlorate in surface sample or deeper? Only can dig down 2 inches because of ice, so in a way they are all surface samples.

Contamination? Delta rocket? How eliminate it as cause? Propulsion experts looking at it. 3rd stage does have perchlorate. Is there a way? We're looking at it. Was ammonium perchlorate so maybe there's a way to detect. Looking.

Toxicity of perchlorate? Concentration? Kounaves: don't know levels.

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Oh sure, that what they want us to believe.

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

Were you going to open up process if Covault article didn't happen? We were waiting for verification.

Why caught off guard by Internet, since it's been a part of exploration for years? Sources leak within programs? Scientists are hard to herd. Hecht: we want to be precise and correct. When speculation on Internet is wrong, and attributed to us, it changes the equation.

What's the significance of perchlorate? And, is there anything else currently of interest that might generate similar buzz? I hope there's more of interest! Why perchlorate important? Can't think of a branch of Mars science where it wouldn't influence. Whole new research chapter opened, perhaps.

No other probe saw it? MECA WCL first to look for soluble salts. It's a new chapter. Kounaves: other instruments looked at elemental composition. WCL "tastes" Mars in wet environment.

How exclude contamination? Could be technician who viewed fireworks? We strive to keep out contaminants, use clean rooms, take great pains, also protect against microbe contamination of Mars. Frequent samples taken, swabs. Hecht: WCL has calibration cells that showed no perchlorate before soil introduced.

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Time limited. How much goes to perchlorate vs. other mission goals? Perchlorate now. Other goals to come. Lot to do, but at least a couple of months left to collect samples.

Any executive branch involvement? OSTB (advisors) was interested to learn they were briefed on this. Ha. Briefed now. No one briefed then.

Previous probes? Different from Viking findings? Leading hypotheses in Viking was small amounts of peroxide or superoxides. Perchlorate is different. Not so reactive in solution, and wouldn't give up oxygen when wetted. Probably not a Viking explanation. (More on chemistry and atmospheric collection and soil movement, too deep for me.)

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Perchlorate 101: why surprising? Not much to do with habitability? Habitability complex. Stable. Wouldn't tear apart organics. Organic signatures now wouldn't be a huge surprise; they can co-exist. It was surprising because it didn't fit previous elemental discoveries.

Change view of habitability up or down? No change.

In past mentioned surprise to come. Perchlorate or something else. Smith: I was thinking of perchlorate at the time.

Levels, abundance in Atacama? Could Phoenix detect it there? Yes. Atacama dominated by nitrate. WCL, still quantifying for Mars. In Atacama is parts per million because chlorine comes from ocean and isn't abundant like nitrogen.

(Who-said-what questions, speakers not identified) (missed real question, about Atacama) Perchlorate very soluble, so moves easily with water, so it will be interesting where it is found at Mars.

Hour's up. Good bye.

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I enjoyed this particular Q and the following A. The actual question was something along the lines of "You guys mentioned a very exciting announcment, is this it or is there another shoe waiting to drop?" Followed by some laughter from the NASA guys, as in "Yes, this indeed is exciting. Don't you find it so?" (Followed by an actual answer along those lines). Made me chuckle.

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

Well well weeeelllllll.... we know what to do the next time they won't tell us anything, right?

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Meet the OOONG TOE.

Todays' news release: Phoenix Mars Team Opens Window on Scientific Process (August 5)

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This is interesting since one of the Viking Life experiments detected oxygen evolution when the soil was wetted in the experiment. As I mentioned in post #456, perchlorate-metabolizing microbes would be able to do this.
The three biology experiments on Viking were the Labeled Release Experiment, the
Pyrolytic Release Experiment, and the Gas Exchange Experiment. The oxygen evolution was detected by the Gas Exchange Experiment. The Labeled Release Experiment detected CO2 being evolved. Some strains of the microbe do evolve CO2 instead of oxygen. The third experiment the Pyrolytic Release Experiment detects generation of organic molecules by incorporation of atmospheric gases. Some strains of the microbe are able to survive with just CO2 as their sole carbon source. Then the perchlorate-metabolizers could be responsible for the positive life signs seen in all three Viking life experiments.
According to this article the perchlorate-metabolizers have been seen in both the Atacama desert and in Antarctica:

Scientists: Martian soil similar to Chile’s desert.
Perchlorate find still needs confirmation; it wouldn’t rule out habitability.
By Alan Boyle
Science editor
MSNBC
updated 8:11 p.m. ET, Tues., Aug. 5, 2008
"However, some organisms actually thrive on perchlorates and have been enlisted for cleaning up chemical spills. Perchlorate-loving microbes have been found in Chile's Atacama Desert and Antarctica — two of the places that have been compared to the Red Planet's cold, dry environment."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26043028/

Then tests of the soils from these sites containing the perchlorate-metabolizers with analogs of the three Viking life experiments may show that life is indeed possible as an explanation of the Viking Mars-life experimental results.


Bob Clark

Interesting the perchlorate's are soluble in water as are salts. So they would have the same freezing-point depressing effect. Since the amount the Mars samples contained is not known it is possible they are enough to allow liquid water at the subfreezing temperatures at the Phoenix site to explain the stickiness of the soil.

Bob Clark

Sol 71 Raw Images began arriving about 10 minutes ago. About 30 images, almost all atmosphere. If the arrivals follow yesterday's pattern, the bulk will start arriving about half a day later from now. These early arrivals would be just the early-morning, post-midnight images.

By the way, the Sol 70 Raw Images wound up being about 440 in number. Quite a haul. I didn't see any dramatic robot arm action though. There was lots and lots of telltale and other science data. (Edit: Texas A&M University Phoenix SSI Raw Images Directory has Sol 70 labeled: "Photometry; up all night, atmosphere remote sensing with MRO".)

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An update, a good summary of what's been going on for the last month:

Planetary Society: Phoenix Mission:
Phoenix Confirms Water-Ice on Mars, But Finds Evidence of Soil Habitability Inconclusive – and No It Hasn't Found Life

Sections are:

• The backstory
• Unraveling Martian mysteries: a work in progress
• Harsh Theories
• Could there be life on Mars?

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Also interesting is its depressing effect on water ice's melting point in a TEGA oven.

Scientific American: Phoenix Gas Analyzer Confirms Water on Mars

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Just about to commence at the top of the hour, with Phoenix talk promised/threatened:

Emily Lakdawalla Ustream video chat

Edit: On now, 1 minute past the hour.

Edit: It's over.

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hey 01101001 i have a question for u or any1 else

i know they have 4 or 5 ovens for the tega's and/or meca's that can only be used once if i understand correctly why is that?
what i mean is why are they not reusable ovens is that not a possibility ?
is there or could they not have a cleaning process for the ovens to be used multiple xxxxx's

i dont know how this would be done but im curious cause i know these type of missions are painfully planned for execution

is it even possible first of all


just curious cause,how many more cracks do we get at this type of science ?

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We have, I think, 5 more TEGA ovens, and two more WCL's remaining. Essentially, they work by getting filled with stuff, so you can only use each, once.


Doug