Phoenix on Mars - Page 17

01101001 · #**481** (**permalink**) 07-August-2008, 04:52 AM

More Sol 71 Raw Images have arrived, probably the bulk of them.

In new Cupboard trench to the right of Dodo-Goldilocks, there is ice. Probably the blue filter.

Soil in the scoop. Less soil in the scoop. More soil in the scoop. I think it's just shots during excavation, not documentation of samples to be tested.

TECP conductivity probe holes.

===

Link time already?
NASA Phoenix Mission
University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission
University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission: Lander Gallery
JPL Phoenix Mission News
NASA Phoenix Twitter Feed
NASA Phoenix Multimedia
CSA Phoenix Mars Mission
Planetary Society: Phoenix Mission
Planetary Society: Phoenix Non-SSI Raw Images
Planetary Society: Phoenix Sol-By-Sol Summary
Planetary Society: Weblog
Emily Lakdawalla Ustream video chat (Wednesdays)
Texas A&M University Phoenix SSI Raw Images Directory
Unmanned Spaceflight Forum: Phoenix 2007/8
Google Mars landing site
NASA TV (or NASA TV Yahoo! source or high-resolution)
NASA TV Media Channel

01101001 · #**482** (**permalink**) 07-August-2008, 08:56 AM

More good Planetary Society coverage:

Planetary Society: Phoenix News:
Alien Rumors Quelled as NASA Announces Phoenix Perchlorate Discovery

Quote:

The rumors that Phoenix had found something really big had grown so out of control last weekend that they had become something of a big alien snowball headed right toward Washington. So, in a hastily arranged teleconference, Phoenix mission scientists met the press yesterday and reported the much-anticipated discovery.
[...]

slang · #**483** (**permalink**) 07-August-2008, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sohh_fly

what i mean is why are they not reusable ovens is that not a possibility ?
is there or could they not have a cleaning process for the ovens to be used multiple xxxxx's

That would make the equipment heavier and more complex. Thus other instruments might need to be sacrificed, and there would be more parts that might fail. It might be possible, but not feasible within the mass budget, and perhaps not the financial budget either.

Maybe it could be fun for you to try to think of all possible solutions to clear previous samples from the oven doors, grid, sensors, and the tiny oven itself, so they wouldn't contaminate new samples. It has to work in extreme cold and in what basically amounts to almost a vacuum. Then try to guess how small it could be built, and guess how much it would weigh, and how much power it would require. Then look up how that compares to the current instruments.

djellison · #**484** (**permalink**) 07-August-2008, 12:50 PM

With the WCL - the experiment actually uses up consumables - the water, the various pellets that get dropped in - at the end of it you've got mars soup + additives in the beaker. Even if you drained it, you would have contamination remaining. 4 is just the number they could cram into the 'box'.

Tega - they're having enough difficulty getting soil into the tiny ovens - getting it out again would be near impossible.

But the major reason they've not spent the time and money and volume and mass and complexity to make them reusable? They don't need to

We're 70 sols into a 90 sol mission, and we've used half the WCL and a third of the TEGA shots.

Doug

01101001 · #**485** (**permalink**) 07-August-2008, 04:34 PM

More perchlorate post-game analysis:

Planetary Society Weblog: Phoenix perchlorate kerfuffle

Quote:

I'll just add a few other random facts that I got from the press briefing and from email and phone conversations afterward. (If you haven't checked out the recording of my Ustream presentation today, watching that might make the following discussion a bit clearer.)

01101001 · #**486** (**permalink**) 07-August-2008, 05:00 PM

Texas A&M University Phoenix SSI Raw Images Directory has upcoming Sol 72 labeled:

Quote:

RR3 acquire, delivery, and site documentation; atmo and surface remote sensing

I don't recognize RR3, but I like the word "delivery". I expect some instrument is getting dumped on. RR is maybe Rosy Red (sample from Snow White trench)? Was there a Rosy Red 2?

Sample names, from Planetary Society Weblog:

Quote:

TEGA's two samples are called Baby Bear (taken near Dodo-Goldilocks) and Wicked Witch (taken in the bottom of Snow White). MECA's two samples are called Rosy Red (taken next to Snow White) and Sorceress (taken in the bottom of Snow White).

Edit: Texas A&M University Phoenix SSI Raw Images Directory now has Sol 72 labeled:

Quote:

Rosy Red 3 acquire, delivery, and site documentation; atmo and surface remote sensing

RGClark · #**487** (**permalink**) 07-August-2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djellison

We have, I think, 5 more TEGA ovens, and two more WCL's remaining. Essentially, they work by getting filled with stuff, so you can only use each, once.

Doug

I read on your site Unmannedspaceflight.com that TEGA can be operated in two modes, one where they limit the compounds searched for to a few expected ones, or a more open analysis where they put no restrictions on the compounds searched for.
Any chance on one of the remaining TEGA ovens only the more general search mode is used?

Bob Clark

MaDeR · #**488** (**permalink**) 07-August-2008, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sohh_fly

i know they have 4 or 5 ovens for the tega's and/or meca's that can only be used once if i understand correctly why is that?
what i mean is why are they not reusable ovens is that not a possibility ?

I am going to guess that making 8 one-time ovens are A LOT easier than even one reusable oven to send to Mars. A LOT.

01101001 · #**489** (**permalink**) 07-August-2008, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGClark

Any chance on one of the remaining TEGA ovens only the mode general search mode is used?

By choice, yes. From what I've read, it's a configurable choice, but during certain phases general searching is not a wise choice; maybe it's not even possible during those phases because it's unwise. A description is in the Planetary Society Weblog: Phoenix perchlorate kerfuffle.

Quote:

As different gases can evolve rather quickly during these early, low heating cycles, the TEGA team can't afford to do the full five-minute mass spectrometer scan during this calorimetry phase -- instead, they focus on a few masses of molecules that they predict will come off during the heating cycle, such as water and its cracking products, hydrogen and oxygen.

After they got perchlorate readings on MECA, they chose to look for chlorine with TEGA (and didn't detect it -- but that can still be consistent with perchlorate).

01101001 · #**490** (**permalink**) 07-August-2008, 10:33 PM

Sol 72 Raw Images have begun arriving.

TEGA delivery!

I'm not sure what oven they were aiming for: the partially open #5, or a difficult-to-see-open #1. No, it looks like #1, next to the way-open #0, is still closed. (Edit, later other images show #1 definitely still closed.) I think they were aiming for the open triangular end of #5.

It might have come from the left of Snow White. That area is imaged a bunch. And it's where Rosy Red came from. So maybe this is another Rosy Red sample, RR3, as above.

Oh, no confirmation yet that it's successful. It'll probably be a while before a news release describes it.

Edit: Nearly clean as a whistle, post-delivery.

sohh_fly · #**491** (**permalink**) 08-August-2008, 02:23 AM

slang and djell
yes those are very good points in response to my post about the reusable ovens ... and im in agreement after considering the facts ....i guess it was wishful thinking ,nasa always hit homeruns , i just waiting for a grand slam in respect to 1 day having no problems at all from a technical point or atleast a very small percentage of difficulty with probes

the last few years of space flight seems to resemble singles and doubles

sohh_fly · #**492** (**permalink**) 08-August-2008, 02:34 AM

yes mader i agree 100% with you ,but this is space flight and im thinking it's like .....its not across the street were talking about here at these distances they gotta go hard or go home
and im not taking shots at the engineers at all i have lots of respect for them for i couldn't participate without them but i'm just feeling that

(anybody would fight for their life if it took everything they had at any cost so i feel phoenix should too)
sorry for the bad example but i hope you understand the feeling i have with this situation if phoenix is spent with time left on the clock and no player's left

im jumping ahead of course if phoenix gets A win then it's all good but guess it's good either way

01101001 · #**493** (**permalink**) 08-August-2008, 04:01 AM

Planetary Society Weblog: Phoenix sol 72: Delivery to TEGA oven 5

Quote:

[...] I wanted to note that the Phoenix team appears to have attempted today the difficult operation of squeezing a sample into the barely-open doors of TEGA oven 5. They have in the past expressed confidence that they could get something inside, and it now appears they were confident enough to try.
[...]
No word yet from the team on whether TEGA successfully shook a bit of sample into its oven. Stay tuned!

RGClark · #**494** (**permalink**) 08-August-2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 01101001

By choice, yes. From what I've read, it's a configurable choice, but during certain phases general searching is not a wise choice; maybe it's not even possible during those phases because it's unwise. A description is in the Planetary Society Weblog: Phoenix perchlorate kerfuffle.

After they got perchlorate readings on MECA, they chose to look for chlorine with TEGA (and didn't detect it -- but that can still be consistent with perchlorate).

It seems to me the gases would hang around anyway. I think the main reason is that since they are doing stepwise heating it would take a long time if they waited 5 minutes at each step.
Perhaps they could try it for one sample.

Bob Clark

01101001 · #**495** (**permalink**) 08-August-2008, 04:59 PM

Just in case you haven't already read enough versions of the perchlorate tale:

Martian Chronicles Blog: Phoenix Update: Pondering Perchlorates

Quote:

And much more! But the discovery that I’d like to focus on today involves potential detection of an interesting chemical compound in a few select teaspoons of martian soil: Perchlorate salts.

The internet has been going batty over the past week or so, first with rumors that the Phoenix team had discovered “something really interesting” and “provocative”, then all of this week with confusion over the announcement of perchlorates. While there’s tons of information (and non-information) floating around about the discovery, I haven’t found any in-depth looks at perchlorates. So here’s mine.
[...]

RGClark · #**496** (**permalink**) 08-August-2008, 07:17 PM

Just saw on the Unmannedspaceflight.com site that MECA is a much more sensitive detector of perchlorate than of nitrates:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/i...0&#entry122910

Then it is possible that nitrates are present in small amounts but got swamped by the perchlorate detection.

Bob Clark

01101001 · #**497** (**permalink**) 09-August-2008, 12:36 AM

Sol 73 Raw Images have begun arriving.

01101001 · #**498** (**permalink**) 09-August-2008, 01:15 AM

BBC Science: Phoenix Diary (Dr. Tom Pike): WEDNESDAY 6 AUGUST - NOTHING TO HIDE?

Quote:

Completing all of these steps would take weeks or months. Skipping a step or two can lead to embarrassment at best. At worst, if faulty results are presented as correct, research can be knocked back years.

Against this measured pace of careful confirmation is the strong desire to show our results to the world. A space mission is a rare opportunity to share the excitement of scientific discovery with a worldwide audience.
[...]
Peter made the difficult decision to make a preliminary announcement on what we had found to date.

Rather than a confident declaration of our findings, this announcement came with a science health warning - this was a work in progress, and as such, the conclusions could shift.

Usually, any scientist feels flattered when a journalist calls to talk about their work.

But for a brief period in the last week we had to give that most uncomfortable stock response: "No comment."

At least after this week's announcement, we can get on with the mission without looking like we've got something to hide.

01101001 · #**499** (**permalink**) 09-August-2008, 05:11 PM

Yesterday's Sol 73 Raw Images have Ice Queen, under the lander, showing more signs of age, with cracks growing:

And for 08/08/08, this MECA Optical image seems apropos:

01101001 · #**500** (**permalink**) 09-August-2008, 07:36 PM

TEGA oven #5 not full yet

NASA Phoenix Mission News: Soil Studies Continue at Site of Phoenix Mars Lander (2008 August 9)

Quote:

NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander has continued studies of its landing site by widening a trench, making overnight measurements of conductivity in the Martian soil and depositing a sample of surface soil into a gap between partially opened doors to an analytical oven on the lander.

Phoenix's robotic arm delivered soil Thursday from a trench informally named "Rosy Red" through a narrow opening to a screen above the No. 5 oven on the lander's Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer (TEGA). A few particles of the sample passed through the screen on Thursday, but not enough to fill the oven and allow analysis of the sample to begin. The Phoenix team sent commands for TEGA to vibrate the screen again on Friday, and more material reached the oven, though still not enough to proceed with analysis.

"There appear to be clumps blocking the opening," said Doug Ming of NASA Johnson Space Center, Houston, the Phoenix team's science lead on Friday. "However, we have seen in the past that when this soil sits for a while, it disperses. We intend to fill an oven with this material, either by additional vibration of the same screen or by opening doors to one of the other TEGA cells."
[...]

Olowkow · #**501** (**permalink**) 09-August-2008, 08:39 PM

Has anyone said which perchlorate they found? Sodium, ammonium, potassium, ferric? I can't seem to find this though I have not looked extensively.

01101001 · #**502** (**permalink**) 09-August-2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olowkow

Has anyone said which perchlorate they found? Sodium, ammonium, potassium, ferric?

They don't know yet. They don't even have high confidence they have found native perchlorate. It's early.

NASA Phoenix Media Telecon - August 5 Transcript:

Quote:

We are still at the stage where multiple hypothesis are being examined. But, even so, we have substantial evidence that [our] soil samples contain perchlorate.

[...]

Let me give you one example. We don't know what mixture of perchlorate salts we actually have in our solution. There are many different types, sodium perchlorate, magnesium perchlorate, ammonium perchlorate.

John Jones · #**503** (**permalink**) 09-August-2008, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olowkow

Has anyone said which perchlorate they found? Sodium, ammonium, potassium, ferric? I can't seem to find this though I have not looked extensively.

I'm not sure I understand this question. Sodium, potassium, ammonium, etc ions exist with perchlorate ions.

Is Phoenix capable of X-Ray crystallography?

Is there an insoluble perchlorate salt I'm not thinking of?

01101001 · #**504** (**permalink**) 10-August-2008, 12:49 AM

Sol 74 Raw Images are arriving. 14, so far.

Squink · #**505** (**permalink**) 10-August-2008, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Jones

Is there an insoluble perchlorate salt I'm not thinking of?

If there is, it's an odd one. Even gallium, lead, and silver perchlorate are water soluble.

JonClarke · #**506** (**permalink**) 10-August-2008, 04:08 AM

Why would you expect an insoluble perchlorate salt?

Jon

01101001 · #**507** (**permalink**) 10-August-2008, 04:24 PM

Sol 75 Raw Images started arriving about a hour ago. 23 so far. Some sun, some atmosphere, some landscape.

01101001 · #**508** (**permalink**) 10-August-2008, 10:21 PM

Update: TEGA has a bun in oven #5

Quote:

Originally Posted by 01101001

TEGA oven #5 not full yet

NASA Phoenix Mission News: Soil Studies Continue at Site of Phoenix Mars Lander (2008 August 9)

Quote:

Update, Aug. 10, 8 a.m. PDT:
Vibration of the screen above a laboratory oven on NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander on Saturday succeeded in getting enough soil into the oven to begin analysis. Commands were sent for the lander's Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer to begin analysis Sunday of the soil sample from a trench called "Rosy Red."

John Jones · #**509** (**permalink**) 11-August-2008, 12:00 AM

Finally.

sohh_fly · #**510** (**permalink**) 11-August-2008, 02:45 AM

that's sweet.. now lets keep the momentum pushin forward

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