STS-125 Shuttle Mission: Hubble Servicing Mission 4 - Page 2

Nicolas · #31 (**permalink**) 31-July-2008, 03:04 PM

Not to sound all woowoo, but if I'm correct there's been quite a lot of military spy sats very similar to Hubble. These weren't designed to be serviced if I understood. Could it be that the design of Hubble was based largely on these sats, resulting in not too serviceable parts?

I'm not sure at all, as a) I don't know whether Hubble was the first in the row or not and b) Hubble was (re?)designed for serviceability (for example, the yellow grips everywhere)

NEOWatcher · #32 (**permalink**) 31-July-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolas

Not to sound all woowoo, but if I'm correct there's been quite a lot of military spy sats very similar to Hubble.

Not being an expert...

I'm sure there are many similarities between them, since some of the functions and problems are virtually the same.
But; the Hubble goes beyond this because it is not a single purpose scope. Even if it were not built with servicability in mind, there is still a lot more instrumentation for a wider range observations.

Nova also mentioned that the mirror was the largest one ever in space. I doubt that something of this nature scales up in a linear fashion. So, even if the design were the same but bigger, the cost would be vastly larger.

"Based on" is a tricky phrase. It can imply both structure and concept, and can imply various levels of "sameness".

On thing that Nova made a point in thier introduction was the public outcry made in opposition of a Hubble retirement. (they said I think) Never was there such a public reaction to a space mission. Yes; other missions may have been historically bigger and more in the news and the public eye, but they didn't invoke this type of reaction.
So; this caused some re-thinking of ways to save it that weren't in it's design.

crosscountry · #33 (**permalink**) 31-July-2008, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToSeek

Lesson learned: never assume that something will never need fixing.

or that public outcry will ask to prolong the life of something unforeseeably precious to them.

Nicolas · #34 (**permalink**) 31-July-2008, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOWatcher

Not being an expert...

I'm sure there are many similarities between them, since some of the functions and problems are virtually the same.
But; the Hubble goes beyond this because it is not a single purpose scope. Even if it were not built with servicability in mind, there is still a lot more instrumentation for a wider range observations.

Nova also mentioned that the mirror was the largest one ever in space. I doubt that something of this nature scales up in a linear fashion. So, even if the design were the same but bigger, the cost would be vastly larger.

"Based on" is a tricky phrase. It can imply both structure and concept, and can imply various levels of "sameness".

On thing that Nova made a point in thier introduction was the public outcry made in opposition of a Hubble retirement. (they said I think) Never was there such a public reaction to a space mission. Yes; other missions may have been historically bigger and more in the news and the public eye, but they didn't invoke this type of reaction.
So; this caused some re-thinking of ways to save it that weren't in it's design.

It is indeed more "similar" than "close to identical": these KH-11 spy sats have a mirror of 2.3m rather than 4m. So that alone implies a total redesign for Hubble.

Swift · #35 (**permalink**) 31-July-2008, 04:31 PM

Since all us non-experts are piping in, I'll add my 2 cents. IIRC, the Hubble was designed to be serviced. I suspect that they designed the systems that were mostly likely to fail, or to be upgraded (such as some of the instruments) to be replaceable. But it wasn't designed to replace every conceivable system. You might design a computer so that the user can upgrade their RAM, their Hard-drive, and the video card, but not the backboard and the power supply. But eventually, one of the non-replaceable systems is going to need replacing. At that moment you say its dead, or you do the more difficult task of replacing the non-replaceable. And what is going to need replacing, and what isn't, is based on your best expert opinion when you design the thing, which of course, never exactly matches the reality 10 or 20 years down the road.

01101001 · #36 (**permalink**) 11-August-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToSeek

Target launch date now October 5.

Then, it's less than 8 weeks to launch, 55 days.

But, the NASA pages I looked at maintain the launch target is October 8, STS-125 Mission :: Overview and NASA Launch Schedule; maybe NASA's waiting for the official firm-up-the-dates managers' meeting on August 14. Stay tuned.

===

Useful links:
NASA Space Shuttle Mission Pages
NASA STS-125 Mission Status Updates
NASA STS-125 Mission Information
NASA STS-125 Mission Overview
NASA Hubble Space Telescope Servicing Mission 4 Overview
NASA News Twitter
Wikipedia: STS-125
NASA Launch Schedule
NASA Kennedy Space Center Shuttle Countdown Status
NASA Shuttle Launch and Landing
NASA Shuttle Launch Blog (active about 6 hours before liftoff)
NASA Shuttle Landing Blog (active about 2 hours before touchdown)
CBS News Space Place
Spaceflight Now STS-125 Mission Coverage
Spaceflight Now STS-125 Mission Status Center
BANews Twitter
BAUT Forum topic STS-119 Space Shuttle Mission (previous mission)
NASA TV (or NASA TV Yahoo! source or high-resolution)

ngc3314 · #37 (**permalink**) 11-August-2008, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolas

It is indeed more "similar" than "close to identical": these KH-11 spy sats have a mirror of 2.3m rather than 4m. So that alone implies a total redesign for Hubble.

Hubble is 2.4m - the existence of facilities to make space optics close to that size factored into the cost of the project. (It is widely rumored that there are now orbiting systems close to 4m in aperture, not even counting ESA's upcoming Herschel far-IR mission). The guidance and instrument packages would have been quite different - reconnaissance needs precise pointing, but assuredly not the ability to maintain pointing at the milliarcsecond level for hours (before launch, many of us thought this would be the major hurdle). Also, it turns out (according to some folks who claim to know, anyway) that inteligence satellites deliberately spend a a lot of time in "safe mode" anyway between taskings, which is what HST operations try very hard to avoid.

01101001 · #38 (**permalink**) 16-August-2008, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 01101001

But, the NASA pages I looked at maintain the launch target is October 8, STS-125 Mission :: Overview and NASA Launch Schedule; maybe NASA's waiting for the official firm-up-the-dates managers' meeting on August 14. Stay tuned.

NASA Space Shuttle Mission Pages (August 14, 2008)

Quote:

After thoroughly reviewing the potential to move up space shuttle Atlantis' and Endeavour's upcoming launch dates by a few days, shuttle program managers decided Thursday to stay with original target launch dates.

Atlantis' STS-125 mission to NASA's Hubble Space Telescope remains targeted for Oct. 8 at 1:34 a.m. EDT. Endeavour's STS-126 mission to the International Space Station is targeted for Nov. 10 at 9:31 p.m. EST.

Launch target:
2008, October 7, 2234 PDT, Tuesday
2008, October 8, 0134 EDT, Wednesday
2008, October 8, 0534 UTC, Wednesday

54 days to launch

crosscountry · #39 (**permalink**) 22-August-2008, 07:01 PM

I'm already getting excited.

NEOWatcher · #40 (**permalink**) 22-August-2008, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry

I'm already getting excited.

Good; just keep a towel handy.

KaiYeves · #41 (**permalink**) 22-August-2008, 09:59 PM

This almost makes up for having to go back to school!

Almost...

Swift · #42 (**permalink**) 26-August-2008, 06:55 PM

LINK

Quote:

August 25, 2008
Space shuttle Atlantis now is in the Vehicle Assembly Building at NASA's Kennedy Space Center, Florida. It was moved from the orbiter processing facility Friday night and arrived in the VAB at 11:05 p.m. EDT.

Atlantis was attached to its external fuel tank and twin solid rocket boosters over the weekend and after additional preparations are made, the shuttle is scheduled to roll out to Launch Pad 39A at 12:01 a.m. EDT Saturday.

The seven astronauts who will fly Atlantis to NASA's Hubble Space Telescope during the STS-125 mission will resume training Monday at NASA's Johnson Space Center. The crew will be practicing spacewalking telescope repair procedures.

Atlantis is targeted to launch Oct. 8 at 1:34 a.m. EDT.

crosscountry · #43 (**permalink**) 28-August-2008, 11:06 PM

lots of hard work ahead for that crew.

01101001 · #44 (**permalink**) 03-September-2008, 04:58 PM

Lots of nice pictures: Boston.com, The Big Picture: Preparing to rescue Hubble (September 1)

NASA Space Shuttle Mission Pages

Quote:

Sept. 3, 2008
Space Shuttle Program managers are watching the forecast of Tropical Storm Hanna as they consider the best time to roll Atlantis to Launch Pad 39A. NASA’s Kennedy Space Center, which is the launch site of NASA’s shuttle fleet, is under Hurricane Condition Four, the lowest hurricane alert level.

Atlantis could be rolled to the pad as early as Thursday, depending on the path and strength of Hanna. NASA and Air Force weather officials are also keeping tabs on Tropical Storm Ike.

Launch target remains:
2008, October 7, 2234 PDT, Tuesday
2008, October 8, 0134 EDT, Wednesday
2008, October 8, 0534 UTC, Wednesday

Less than 5 weeks to launch

KaiYeves · #45 (**permalink**) 04-September-2008, 01:20 AM

I marked it in my new school assignment pad.

01101001 · #46 (**permalink**) 05-September-2008, 11:38 PM

Launch target remains:
2008, October 7, 2234 PDT, Tuesday
2008, October 8, 0134 EDT, Wednesday
2008, October 8, 0534 UTC, Wednesday

Just a moment...

NASA Launch Schedule

Quote:

Date: Oct. 10 +
Mission: STS-125
Launch Vehicle: Space Shuttle Atlantis
Launch Site: Kennedy Space Center Launch Pad 39A
Launch Time: 12:33 a.m. EDT
Landing Site: Kennedy Space Center's Shuttle Landing Facility
Landing Date and Time: Oct. 20 +

Launch target:
2008, October 09, 2133 PDT, Thursday
2008, October 10, 0033 EDT, Friday
2008, October 10, 0433 UTC, Friday

Swift · #47 (**permalink**) 06-September-2008, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 01101001

Launch target remains:
2008, October 7, 2234 PDT, Tuesday
2008, October 8, 0134 EDT, Wednesday
2008, October 8, 0534 UTC, Wednesday

Just a moment...

Well that a relief. For a moment I thought you were going to tell us that the AE-35 unit was going to fail.

01101001 · #48 (**permalink**) 15-September-2008, 02:25 AM

NASA Launch Schedule

Tiny change in time.

Launch target:
2008, October 09, 2143 PDT, Thursday
2008, October 10, 0043 EDT, Friday
2008, October 10, 0443 UTC, Friday

Around 26 days to launch

01101001 · #49 (**permalink**) 20-September-2008, 12:55 AM

Less than 3 weeks to launch

NASA Hubble Servicing Mission 4 Essentials

Quote:

On October 10, 2008, astronauts will board the Space Shuttle Atlantis for Servicing Mission 4 (SM4), the final trip to the Hubble Telescope. Over the course of five spacewalks, they will install two new instruments, repair two inactive ones, and perform the component replacements that will keep the telescope functioning at least into 2014. The effort-intensive, rigorously researched, exhaustively tested mission also involves diverse groups of people on the ground throughout the country.

Lots of detail there about what they'll try to accomplish.

slang · #50 (**permalink**) 22-September-2008, 09:32 AM

I'm not sure if I've seen these here before, so .. two sets of pictures showing two shuttles on launchpads: here and here.

01101001 · #51 (**permalink**) 22-September-2008, 04:25 PM

Orlando Sentinel: New cargo problem threatens Shuttle Atlantis launch date

Quote:

The long-awaited mission of space shuttle Atlantis to service the Hubble Space Telescope looks almost certain to be delayed because of more trouble trying to lift cargo into the orbiter.

After being ferried to Launch Pad 39A on Saturday night, the canister carrying the hardware for the telescope couldn't be mated with ground support equipment, or GSE. The canister has to fit together with the GSE in order to be lifted into the Payload Changeout Room. The payload has to be processed via the changeout room to be loaded into Atlantis’ cargo bay.

According to previous NASA statements, the Atlantis mission currently doesn't have any contingency days to accommodate delays and still meet the planned Oct. 10 liftoff date. So far, NASA hasn't issued any official statement about the latest Hubble payload problems.

Edit, hours later: CBS News Space Place (7:45 PM, 9/22/08, Update):

Quote:

A shuttle program-level review is planned later this week. Mission managers will assess the shuttle's readiness, crew training, flight control preparations and the impact of Hurricane Ike on the Johnson Space Center workforce, before making a launch date recommendation to senior NASA managers. An executive-level FRR is scheduled for Oct. 2 and 3.

While the launch target remains Oct. 10, sources said today a slip of two or more days is expected because of lost training time due to the hurricane and the shutdown of the Johnson Space Center last week, as well as payload processing issues at the Kennedy Space Center.

Extravoice · #52 (**permalink**) 22-September-2008, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slang

I'm not sure if I've seen these here before, so .. two sets of pictures showing two shuttles on launchpads: here and here.

Seeing two shuttles on the pad at the same time is just too cool for words.

01101001 · #53 (**permalink**) 25-September-2008, 01:50 AM

NASA Launch Schedule

Quote:

Date: Oct. 14 +
Mission: STS-125
Launch Vehicle: Space Shuttle Atlantis
Launch Site: Kennedy Space Center Launch Pad 39A
Launch Time: 10:19 p.m. EDT
Landing Site: Kennedy Space Center's Shuttle Landing Facility
Landing Date and Time: Oct. 20 +

Slip.

CBS News Space Place

Quote:

Shuttle program managers today ordered minor delays for the next two shuttle missions - an October flight to service the Hubble Space Telescope and a November space station assembly mission - primarily because of training time lost in the aftermath of Hurricane Ike.

The target launch date for shuttle mission STS-125, the fifth and final planned Hubble servicing mission, will slip from Oct. 10 to 10:19 p.m. EDT on Oct. 14, officials said. Shuttle managers meeting for a program-level flight readiness review also agreed to delay launch of Endeavour on the next mission, STS-126, from Nov. 12 to Nov. 16. Liftoff of that flight would be targeted for around 7:07 p.m.

The new target dates still must be reviewed by senior management, which plans an executive-level readiness review Oct. 2 and 3.

Launch target:
2008, October 14, 1919 PDT, Tuesday
2008, October 14, 2219 EDT, Tuesday
2008, October 15, 0219 UTC, Wednesday

Around 20 days to launch

Launch window · #54 (**permalink**) 25-September-2008, 08:55 AM

A rough Hurricane season can influence the lives of everyone working in the area, many were expecting this delay

HAVOC451 · #55 (**permalink**) 29-September-2008, 04:26 PM

I'm hoping for a flawless launch. And now that I'm living a bit northwest of Edwards AFB, I'm hoping for a California landing.

01101001 · #56 (**permalink**) 29-September-2008, 06:47 PM

BA Blog: Major Hubble failure may delay Shuttle flight

Quote:

Well, nuts. There was a major failure in the Hubble Space Telescope electronics last night. The box that controls the detectors — the actual cameras that take the pictures and data of the sky — has malfunctioned. While the observatory itself can still be controlled, the cameras are out of commission.

Now, this may not be a complete disaster. NASA designs redundancy into important systems like this. There are two independent electronics systems in HST. This failure was in one, which means that they can switch to other and regain camera operational control… maybe. Side B, as the backup system is called, has never been used, so it’s been sitting up there for 18+ years and never been switched on. It’ll take a few days for NASA engineers to make sure things will work.

If it doesn’t, well then, that’s a sticky wicket indeed. The HST servicing mission was scheduled for launch in two weeks, and that might very well be delayed, maybe as long as many months. It’ll take that long at least to figure out how to fix things on Hubble.

schlaugh · #57 (**permalink**) 29-September-2008, 08:34 PM

Not sure why the headline doesn't agree with the story:
NASA May Delay Repair Mission to Hubble

Quote:

CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) -- NASA said Monday it is delaying its shuttle mission to the Hubble Space Telescope until next year because of an unexpected breakdown of the telescope.Space shuttle Atlantis was scheduled to blast off in just two weeks, carrying seven astronauts on a mission to upgrade the telescope.

But on Saturday night, Hubble stopped sending science data, meaning it is unable to capture and beam down the information for its stunning deep space images. Now NASA must regroup and may send up a replacement part, which would require more training for the astronauts.

The mission is off until at least early next year, possibly February. The astronauts had trained for two years to make a series of upgrades on the 18-year-old telescope.

slang · #58 (**permalink**) 29-September-2008, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 01101001

Major Hubble failure may delay Shuttle flight

NOOOOOOOOOoooooooo! Makes one wonder if Major Hubble is related to General Failure or Cmdr Murphy.

01101001 · #59 (**permalink**) 29-September-2008, 11:51 PM

BA Blog: Hubble Update

Quote:

[...] So the upshot is that this is pretty bad, but possibly not a disaster. If Side B comes up, then Hubble will work and we’re fine until the next servicing mission, when they can install the new cameras, gyros, and other hardware — including the spare SICDHS. If Side B does not come up, well then, yeah, things are bad. Hubble will have to stay down until the new servicing mission can be launched, which means three months at least without a working observatory.

However, once the servicing mission goes up, one way or another NASA currently thinks they’ll be able to get Hubble back up, shined up, and running smoothly.

It will take some time, days at least, before we get more news. But I’ll add that things could have been much, much worse; had this happened after the servicing mission — and it only happened two weeks before the scheduled launch! — and Side B didn’t go up, that would be it. Hubble would be dead. So it’s actually rather good it happened now. It’s almost funny, but that’s the bright side to this.

Amber Robot · #60 (**permalink**) 01-October-2008, 08:59 PM

I read the transcript from the telecon that NASA had and they seem pretty confident that the Side B will come up. It's just that they have to switch some other electronics also to their Side Bs, so there will be more potential single-point failures. But, if they replace the whole part in the delayed mission next February or so, then things will be back to the usual redundancies.

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