Chatroom
 

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > Science and Space > Space Exploration
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

   

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 23-November-2008, 01:07 PM
Robonaut Robonaut is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 28
Question Solar Storms and Risk to Astronauts

I was watching the first episode of The Universe series on Blu-Ray yesterday, and they talked a bit about solar storms and their potential risks (overloading powerlines, possible dangerous levels of radiation exposure for airplanes in flight near the poles, etc.).

A bit more reading on the subject suggests that solar storms are a serious risk to astronauts in orbit around the Earth or on the Moon.

I'm wondering, though, at what distance from the Sun do solar storms cease being dangerous to astronauts?

If astronauts were orbiting one of the outer planets, would a solar storm still present a serious risk of radiation exposure?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 23-November-2008, 02:29 PM
PraedSt's Avatar
PraedSt PraedSt is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,787
Default

Hi Robonaut. Good question. My two cents:

The degree of danger depends on four things:

1. The type of solar event you consider. There is the 'normal' solar wind, which you may regard as baseline solar weather. From time to time, this wind gets supplanted with stronger events such as solar flares or coronal mass ejections.

2. Regardless of the event, danger rapidly decreases with increased distance from the Sun. This is because incident radiation follows an inverse square law. It drops off in proportion to distance from the Sun, squared.

3. Some types of solar output can be directional. Coronal mass ejections are one. If you're not in it's path, you'll obviously be ok.

4. Planetary magnetic fields play a very important role. Magnetospheres tend to collect and concentrate whatever radiation is out there. The Earth's magnetosphere, and consequent geo-magnetic storms, raise the risk in the near-earth environment.

So- the outer planets. You have a greater distance from the Sun (2), but they all have magnetospheres (4). Jupiter has the largest one by far. On top of this, Jupiter, together with it's moon Io, also produces it's own radiation. On balance, adding all this up, the Jovian environment is very dangerous.

Please note: This may not be entirely accurate. I'm no expert.

Last edited by PraedSt; 23-November-2008 at 03:35 PM.. Reason: of---->or
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 23-November-2008, 05:38 PM
KaiYeves's Avatar
KaiYeves KaiYeves is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Currently on assignment on planet shown in avatar photo
Posts: 9,951
Default

And of course, sometimes it gives them superpowers...
__________________
I want to go back to the moon.
I don't care which rocket you use, whichever one you pick, I'll like it, I swear.

"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 23-November-2008, 06:48 PM
JohnD JohnD is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,703
Default

PreadSt.
I'm not sure you're fully right about the inverse square law (ISL)!
That applies to radiation, but the solar wind and flares are particles.
They would spread out in a way that is equivalent to the ISL, but being charged will follow lines of magnetic force. So flares will tend not to go towards the solar poles.
And could the magnetospheres of the planets cast a "shadow", which could protect spacefarers?

John
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 23-November-2008, 06:51 PM
01101001's Avatar
01101001 01101001 is online now
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 13,364
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PraedSt View Post
4. Planetary magnetic fields play a very important role. Magnetospheres tend to collect and concentrate whatever radiation is out there. The Earth's magnetosphere, and consequent geo-magnetic storms, raise the risk in the near-earth environment.
Or, the magnetosphere, lowers risk by providing protection.

It depends on where the astronauts are located. It protects us surface dwellers. It adds protection for the astronauts in the ISS and the low-Earth orbits. It would even at times protect astronauts on the moon (University of Washington press release: Earth's magnetic field could help protect astronauts working on the moon).
__________________
0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 ...
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 23-November-2008, 07:16 PM
PraedSt's Avatar
PraedSt PraedSt is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,787
Default

I knew I'd missed a few things.

Re ISL- I assumed that applied to particles spreading out too?
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 29-November-2008, 03:21 PM
mugaliens mugaliens is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 12,277
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robonaut View Post
I'm wondering, though, at what distance from the Sun do solar storms cease being dangerous to astronauts?
1.732245395 billion miles. Within that distance, they're toast, not only from the massive genetic damage, but burned to a crisp, literally.

But at 1.8 billion miles, it's like sipping lemonade on a warm Sunday afternoon...

Ok. That's an exaggeration. In reality, it would depend on the strength of the solar storm, which vary widely.

Quote:
If astronauts were orbiting one of the outer planets, would a solar storm still present a serious risk of radiation exposure?
It could, if the storm were strong enough, though it's less likely that far out.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 29-November-2008, 07:46 PM
matthewota matthewota is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Earth, Solar System, Orion spur, Orion Arm, Milky Way galaxy, Local Group
Posts: 936
Default

The radiation hazards of deep space fight by humans is not publicized that much by NASA and space advocates. It is a real danger and will require mitigation measures before we can commit to sending people for extended periods beyond our magnetosphere. There are aready studies for solar flare alert instruments for when we return to the Moon. The instruments will alert astronauts in enough time for them to find shelter to avoid fatal exposure from the intense radiation from massive coronal mass ejections (CME) from the Sun.

For Mars-bound astronauts, perhaps they will store their water in a jacket around the crew compartment in order to provide protection. Or they could engineer a smaller "safe" compartment inside a large water tank.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 29-November-2008, 11:23 PM
JonClarke JonClarke is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Canberra Australia
Posts: 3,193
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewota View Post
The radiation hazards of deep space fight by humans is not publicized that much by NASA and space advocates. It is a real danger and will require mitigation measures before we can commit to sending people for extended periods beyond our magnetosphere. There are aready studies for solar flare alert instruments for when we return to the Moon. The instruments will alert astronauts in enough time for them to find shelter to avoid fatal exposure from the intense radiation from massive coronal mass ejections (CME) from the Sun.

For Mars-bound astronauts, perhaps they will store their water in a jacket around the crew compartment in order to provide protection. Or they could engineer a smaller "safe" compartment inside a large water tank.
NASA and space advocates talk about radiation hazards, and their mitigation to an acceptable level of risk, a great deal.

Jon
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 29-November-2008, 11:30 PM
Ara Pacis's Avatar
Ara Pacis Ara Pacis is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: between the candle and the star.
Posts: 4,265
Default

To protect against the sun you only really need a shadow shield, basically a dense parasol. There are other radiation risks, such as that from cosmic rays, which would require different countermeasures, including a shield to surround the crew. However, neither of these systems necessarily have to be deadweight, as a proper design might use them to perform double duty at some point in the mission.

Eventually, we may have interplanetary cyclers that have heavy-duty purpose specific shielding, but since they merely cycle in convenient orbits instead of start and stop at specific destinations, the deadweight penalty for the initial acceleration isn't really important.
__________________
"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-December-2008, 04:02 AM
matthewota matthewota is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Earth, Solar System, Orion spur, Orion Arm, Milky Way galaxy, Local Group
Posts: 936
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ara Pacis View Post
To protect against the sun you only really need a shadow shield, basically a dense parasol. There are other radiation risks, such as that from cosmic rays, which would require different countermeasures, including a shield to surround the crew. However, neither of these systems necessarily have to be deadweight, as a proper design might use them to perform double duty at some point in the mission.

Eventually, we may have interplanetary cyclers that have heavy-duty purpose specific shielding, but since they merely cycle in convenient orbits instead of start and stop at specific destinations, the deadweight penalty for the initial acceleration isn't really important.
One layer of aluminized mylar will not protect you from protons in a CME....
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-December-2008, 05:33 AM
Ara Pacis's Avatar
Ara Pacis Ara Pacis is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: between the candle and the star.
Posts: 4,265
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewota View Post
One layer of aluminized mylar will not protect you from protons in a CME....
Who said otherwise?
__________________
"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 10-December-2008, 05:42 AM
matthewota matthewota is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Earth, Solar System, Orion spur, Orion Arm, Milky Way galaxy, Local Group
Posts: 936
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ara Pacis View Post
Who said otherwise?

In my book, a dense parasol is like to the one put up by the Skylab 2 crew (Conrad, Kerwin & Weitz). It was a thermal shield only, not designed to stop solar flares.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-December-2008, 01:26 AM
Ara Pacis's Avatar
Ara Pacis Ara Pacis is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: between the candle and the star.
Posts: 4,265
Default

Oh, I haven't read that book. I'm not using a specialized definition of the term "dense parasol". I merely mean to refer to a shield that is parasolic and dense enough for the job referred to by context.
__________________
"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Landers May Be at Risk From a Dust Storm Fraser Universe Today Story Comments 0 11-September-2005 06:14 AM
Discussion: Landers May Be at Risk From a ... Fraser Universe Today Story Comments 6 18-December-2003 08:39 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.0.0
©  2006 Bad Astronomy and Universe Today