SUMMARY: My question about relativity is fairly straightforward. I know about time dialation, length contraction, and mass increase as you approach the speed of light. My question is: since your mass increases as you approach the speed of light, would that also translate into a gravatational increase as well? Because if it would, wouldn't it be possible to theoretically travel fast enough that your mass would increase to the point where the spaceship would collapse into a black hole? - AstroWannabe

What do you think about this story? Post your comments below.

I agree with Dr. Francis that accelerating a spacecraft will cause some structural compression. If the acceleration is very large, so will be the compression.

I am curious to know why Dr. Francis didn't consider that the space-craft's self gravity has to be considered in the rest frame of the space craft. Does he believe that there is a prefered frame of reference, or some ether filling space?

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Forming opinions as we speak

Surely if a spacecraft was this massive, it would collapse into a black hole without having to move anywhere.

The original question was that accelerating any object with a non-zero mass to close to the speed of light would give it greater and greater mass. So if the mass was very small, applying E=Mc2 would give a much smaller amount of energy needed to reach close to light speed but you could still get the small object to acquire a mass of 35 Jupiters. Couldn't you?

I don't understand how Dr. Francis's response actually answers Astro's question.

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Spike
:)

I've been reading this story and it left me quite puzzled.

I'm just using the Newtonian laws in this.

1) I always assumed that mass was a frame from which to derive the potential energy.
Example (on asumption), if I pushed a rocket with a constant force, the translation of that force into speed decreases similar as if the rocket gained mass. Or, if I pushed a light object, the speed gained will be larger then when I push a heavy object.

2) I always assumed that the maximum speed possible to atain was the maximum speed of an any possible existing thing (light) used as propellant. Anything with less speed (combustion engine) will only give me that speed with which it is used to propel the object.

With these 2 laws, I can never come up with the fact that the mass in the formula is the actual mass of the propelled object, and thus I can't see how this "formula mass" actualy emits a gravitational field larger then it's original rest mass.

To me it seems like saying that it's quite normal to asume in a formula that the sun is rotating around the earth, as within that frame, I can always calculate the exact time where the sun will be, instead of using a formula which is based on the fact that the Earth rotates around its axis.
(I don't mind the result, but I doubt that the sun would be speeding through space at speeds higher then the lightspeed, if we used that formula to calculate the sun's speed)

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Have you found the loop or the loophole?

I'm really confused by the answer from Dr. Francis. Surely the whole point of relativity is that there is no preferred frame of reference, so I can DEFINE a reference frame in which the spaceship is moving at a velocity where it has an effective mass of more than 35 Jupiters IN THAT REFERENCE FRAME. With this in mind the answer has to be no to the original question.

You also have to remember that anything in this frame of reference would see this ship moving at almost the speed of light. Any gravitational effects in the vacinity of a stationary object in this frame would be extremely short lived and so this seems to rule out the possibility that the ship would even act like an effective black hole in this frame of reference.

I agree with antoniseb that large acceleration will probably cause some stress on the spaceship, but remember that velocity and acceleration are two different things and velocity alone is sufficient for the increase in mass observed with relativity.

In short I think I'm disagreeing with Dr. Francis

There are some good links to information on relativity at
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/relativity.html

This site has nothing to do with me, but it looks as if it might provide interesting reading for anyone interested.

The actual formula of E=mc2 is:

E = restmass * c2 + Kinetic Energy.

If someone tells me that the impact of the spaceship (KEnergy) equals that of a black hole, I can understand that.
In that frame, there is no difference between a blackhole and the spaceship.

But in the overall Frame, the spaceships mass hasn't been increased. Only it's Kinetic Energy.

Kinetic Energy = restmass * c2 ( (1 / (sqrt ( 1-v2/c2))-1)

somehow, someone managed to change restmass of the rocket into a blackhole.

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Have you found the loop or the loophole?

huummmm, well, to change gravity one would need to change the gravitational constant, which does not depend on mass. :blink: :blink:

The original question is an excellent one. It raises the question about the distinction between different "kinds" of "mass." We normally think of gravitational and inertial mass as being equal, but as the astronauts have shown, by walking on the moon, they are not. Similarly, other kinds of mass, normally thought of as "charge" or "field strength" are not always constant, or if they are, they do not always exist at a fixed ratio to the inertial or gravitational mass. In Einstein's equations, we talk about "mass" increasing as a convenient way to discuss the mathematics. In reality, only the inertial mass increases -- not the gravitational mass (or gravitational charge, according to other newer theories), neither does the charge, nor the nuclear forces. Good question though.

Dr. Dan Fry was a scientist at the White Sands Proving Grounds.Ths happened on July 4, 1950.

This 2-dimensional diagram, is a true representation of what he rode in.

Of course 23D century tech. in the 1950's, or even now, is so far advanced over the theories of today, it would be considered magic, as Arthur Clark says.

Obviously there is a way to create an attraction identical to gravity, as explained, that makes all our great theories mostly null and void, except for what we use them for.


A Diagram is worth a thousand relativity / quantum theories.

http://community-2.webtv.net/WF11/doc4/

One cool ride

Prime

I read many many years ago, (many many many) that as a ship aproaches the speed of light, its mass approaches the infinite, also its gravitation field approaches the infinite and eventually EVERYTHING in the universe is sucked into it causing the end of the universe.

So don't do it ! ! ! ! !

Actually this argument is frequently used to demonstrate the imposibility of flight at the speed of light, as mass increases more thrust is needed till eventually an infinite amount of thrust is needed to show any accelleration at all.

Even wth antimatter engines at 100% efficiency eating the ships mass as fuel the loss of mass into the engines would exactly equal the increase in mass from the velocity ( E=mc2 ~~~mc2+E ) so a kind of stalemate would exist with nothing happening.

I think???

I may have read this in one of Isaac Asimov's science essays... or not.

Cheers

Alan (Walsall)

My name is Alfonso Guillén, I am from Colombia I formulate in work ”The Gravity” published in 1995 and revised in 1996 my thesis about bodies in very close speed of light will collapse in hole black. This thesis is development in the numeral 1.1 Criticism of the theory of the relativity. I also send version this thesis with calculus to main news world agencies such like APA, Reuter and others in 1999 which do not published this news. My work “The Gravity” is in the address in Internet:
http://www.geocities.com/physic1525/gravit...ml#_Toc60547391

This is a good question i think that it can increes gravity on a persons body.

In August of 1995, in Bogotá, Colombia, I published my work “Proposal for
measure the speed of the gravity according with Position Astronomy”. In
August of 1996, also in Bogotá, Colombia, I published my work “The Gravity”.
This work is second version of previous play.
In “The Gravity” I formulate the following theory: In the nature exist
velocities greater than speed of the light in vacuum, one is speed of
gravity according with following theses:
1. The best interpretation of the equations of Einstein’s Relativity about
time dilation, length contraction, and mass increase when a substantial body
accelerates and body successively approach to the speed of light is the
interpretation of that body changes of physical form. This interpretation
is result of to revise Relativity with the collapse Chandrasekhar y Landau
theories and the Pound-Rebka experiments. The substantial body very, very
closed to speed of the light would collapse to a black hole form. Sure the
transformation of one substantial body in black hole using the mechanism of
successive acceleration until very, very closed speed of the light only it
reaches inside of the frame of one thinking experiment. In this form of
black hole one substantial body is not controlled by physical rules known.
One substantial body has atomic structure like atoms or plasma. In nature
the either category body is transmitting force such like virtual photon,
virtual graviton, W+, W-, Z0, or gluon. The acceleration of one substantial
body is caused by addition of energy in the form of kinetic energy.
2. In general the addition of energy to bodies with atomic structure is the
cause of the transformation of physical form or physical state of the
matter. Thus the matter in the state condensed of Bose-Einstein is passed to
molecular form and molecular form is passed to plasma form. Or in molecular
form the state solid is passed liquid and state liquid is passed gaseous.
Also, substance to very high energy is passed to energy forms such like the
transformation of nuclear mass to real and virtual photons during the
nuclear process observed in the Sun of the atomic combustion of hydrogen in
helium.
3. The best interpretation of the theory of the quantum era drives to
transformations of the forms of energy according with the high energies.
These transformations are the cause of the successive unifications such like
weak energy and electromagnetic energy is unified in electroweak energy
form, reached in laboratory in 1983, and strong energy and electroweak
energy is unified in TGU and all energy forms are unified in one only form
in the highest energy, in supergravity theory.
4. Each form and state of the substance has one limit speed for his
elementary compounds, more there the form or state it transforms in either.
The limit speed of one form or state is the limit speed for the signals
modulates in elementary compound of that form or state. Thus, form example,
the possible highest speed of the molecules of the state gaseous is the
limit speed of all signals that it can modular in the molecules in the forms
molecular and state condensed of Einstein-Bose. The limit speed for
substantial bodies is the speed of the light in the vacuum, called c.
Because the substantial bodies it would transform in black holies if they
will reach the speed c.
5. But the speed of the light in vacuum is not final limit speed of the
Universe. Because: A) In the General Relativity theory the speed of the
light in the vacuum depending of density of energy of vacuum. This speed is
c for density of energy of vacuum closed to density 0. This density 0 is one
relative value that corresponding to density of density of energy of vacuum
observed near to Land. Vacuum with absolute density energy 0 corresponding
to one absolute empty space, this space no exists. For vacuum with relative
negative density of energy, < 0 , speed of the light must over passes c. B)
The speed c is over passed for the same electromagnetic waves for one vacuum
of negative of energy like is observed with evanescent waves in the
experiments realized for Dr Gunter Nimtz. C) The non locality principle
observed in the quantum systems proved in Alain Aspect experiment. This
principle suggests the existence of signals with speed closed to infinite
speed. D) The theory of Big-Bang requires of one speed at moment of
explosion closed to infinite speed. Einstein was aware of this requirement
but he explains that it does not violates limit speed c because is the speed
of expansive explosion of space-time. Indeed I say “space-time” does not
exist empty. Then what was the speed of the material content of space-time
during Big-Bang?. And which was the material content of space-time at moment
Big-Bang?. I respond the speed of material was closed to infinite speed and
material was supergravity according with Big-Bang and quantum era theories.
6. Gravity is not substance and gravity equal to electromagnetism lack of
four moment mass. Then speed of gravity can to be greater than speed of c.
If gravity is not a Cassimere effect of long reach then his speed must to be
different to speed of c because is universal the principle of quantitative
difference between qualitative different material things and gravity and
electromagnetism would be different things. Now according quantum era
theory supergravity generates first gravity and after electromagnetism.
Indeed the speed of gravity must to be near to speed of supergravity. Thus
speed of gravity is greater than speed of electromagnetism.
If a body very closed to speed of light it would collapse in a black hole
then we have one clues thesis that drives to my formulate theory of
existence of velocities greater than c.
My theory about of existence of speed greater than c was for first time
published in 1969-1970 in the newspaper “El Siglo” in four articles.
I have in Internet the works:
1. The Gravity” is in the address:
http://www.geocities.com/physic1525/gravit...ml#_Toc60547391
2. SUPELUMINAL VELOCITIES TECNOLOGY GAIN ASSISTED GROUP OF PRINCETON your address is
http://www.geocities.com/physic1525/superlumies.html
3. THE EXPERIMENTS INDICATE THAT THE VELOCITY OF THE GRAVITY IS MINIMUM 20 BILLIONS TIMES C your address is
http://www.geocities.com/physic1525/velogravtom.html
These works had had the collaboration of Helmut Rechenberg, Tom Van
Flandern, Aephraim Steinberg, Sergei Kopeikin and Paul Marmet.
I submit these theses for discussion to forum of the Universe Today. Thank, very much.

See what i think is that when you go that speed you disenagrate then come back together after you come out but that is just my theory there is probably millions upon millions of theory out there